Downsizing Decisions | Tim Clark & Mark BonDurant, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partners

Transcript Disclaimer: This transcript is generated using speech-to-text technology and may contain errors or inaccuracies.

Mike Koelzer, Host: [00:00:00] Well, hello guys. Hello, Mike, mark, and Tim, for those that haven't come across, you introduce yourself and tell our listeners what we're talking about 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: today. My name is Mark Bonderant. I'm a partner in pharmacy transition partners. Uh, my background has been, I was a store manager for about 20 years. Had an opportunity to buy into, uh, Tim's family business of Clark's farm.

Uh, during that time, uh, Tim and I, uh, got up to 10 stores, we sold a few, sold it back to three stores. And then in a matter of five years, we went from three stores to 16. So my job during that time was COO or operations. So, uh, pretty much most things fell under my umbrella with personnel management, uh, budget management, uh, making sure that our workflow was.

Uh, so then a few years ago we sold off again, some of the stores and sets that time. I've been a full-time consultant, both with pharmacy transition partners and independent RX. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Perfect. So Tim, we heard Mark's side of the story. Let's see if that lines up with you. Tell us who you are, what makes sure that we got the right pair together here 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: I am Tim Clark.

I'm a third generation pharmacists, and I've worked for Marc Bonderant since I was about 14, 15 years old. Um, I used to be his delivery driver, his stocked boy, I'd go out and get his taco bell. And Mark bought me my first beer. We've been good friends and we're a family business. Um, even though other people told me not to go to pharmacy school, I went into pharmacy school and became a pharmacist, kind of followed by my dad.

Mark's footsteps, if you want to say. And, uh, during that time of buying and selling stores and opening stores, you know, Mark had the great opportunity of figuring out that I wasn't good at everything. And, you know, Mark and I were really good partners that, uh, he was more organizationally minded and, uh, kept things nice and tight.

And I was more of the, the guy who kind of had the dream we've bought and sold 30 stores for ourselves. But then we've also had the great opportunity of helping other pharmacists do what we've done. And right now we're focusing on helping, uh, pharmacists transition their business. I 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I want you guys to think back to the first time you remember dealing with each other to sell a current pharmacy or to buy another pharmacy.

Remember that pretty well. Is it clear in both of your heads, what decision that was at that time you were, what one store or? Uh, 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: we actually had three stores. Mike, what was 

Mike Koelzer, Host: the first store decision you made as far as the number of stores after those three? 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: Correct me if I'm wrong, mark. But I think the first thing was we, we opened a store from scratch.

That was kind of in the middle of all three of the stores. At that time, the volume of prescriptions was increasing every year and we had three growing stores. So just like, I don't know if it was smarter, not Mike, but we decided to put a store in between all of them thinking that's a, this would add convenience to our customer, but also another opportunity.

It was. And a community that I lived in. So I was kind of excited to have a store closer to my house. And, uh, we kind of partnered with the local grocer and we opened up a, a store inside of a, um, a little mom and pop grocery 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: store. Well, I think the first one was, it just simply looked like an opportunity and.

And with that discussion, as you'll notice with, anytime you ask us about how the decision was made, Tim is always the aggressive optimist and I'm always the very cautious one, the 

Mike Koelzer, Host: gas and the. 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: Absolutely. Yeah. So, uh, people ask me, you know, what would it be like if, if, if it wasn't for Tim and, uh, I would say, well, I would have one really good store because that's my cautiousness, but it's the next one.

That's crazy. Mike, we got the scoop and it was a purchase of an existing store. Uh, looking back on it, it was a great opportunity and I'm certainly glad that, uh, that Tim saw that opportunity and was able to take care of it. But. But all I could see was, uh, This is going to be a million dollars to buy a store.

Well, it wasn't just 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: a million dollars. It was $1.30. Yeah. 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: Well, anything over a million didn't matter to me at that point, Tim 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: and I don't know, Mike, if we have this great grand plan to go own 10 stores or 20 stores, we had that wasn't our plan. It was let's [00:05:00] look at deals and opportunities and see, see what happens.

Every transaction creates a little bit more risk. But with every little risk, there's a little bit more opportunity. My only risk that I thought was, well, I could get stuck working the store for me. I was looking at growing the business so I could have more time off the bench and more time at home. I think Mark and I would say that was actually the step that actually catapulted us to having more stores because it gave us the candidate.

Mark BonDurant, RPh: And I, and I think that's really interesting too, because if you look at Tim's primary motivation, at least during that time for expansion, it wasn't so much to build this empire. It was exactly what he said. It was so that, uh, he could be with his family more. And he knew that if we expanded with stores then other people could help run the business and he could, uh, he could do.

Behold with the family 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: more 

Mike Koelzer, Host: because you knew if things went south, that one of the first areas that would help you out would be by cutting down a pharmacist and then you'd be back more, but you'd pick up a quick hundred grand or something like 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: that. Absolutely. Mike, that's exactly how I thought of it.

Now, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: When you guys think back to your fourth and fifth store, Was there any negative emotion and if there was, what would that emotion be? 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: Each person that you buy a store from each individual typically means they're different. You've got the guy, who's the one man band who's like OCD on everything. Then you've got the, you know, the one owner who has Sally or, or Jim or whoever does all of his stuff.

And he was kind of floating around, you know, more. Probably like me more like a squirrel. So you just didn't know when you're buying somebody, what that store was going to be like and what you were replacing. So, the thing, I think, as a young man or young men that we were learning is, huh? Every transaction is different, completely different.

What was 

Mike Koelzer, Host: the worst fall back ever after stores five, six or seven? To be open. 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: I have to have a pharmacist on staff. And during that period of time was when we had a pharmacist shortage. So, I mean, this was the time where, you know, you're given $20,000 bonuses, you're leasing guys cars for them to go leave, to come work for you and take a chance even though you and I both know working in independent pharmacy is a lot easier even back in the nineties, as it is to work for a chain.

And what I mean easier is. You, you have some control and you, you have some input in terms of what happens, right? But during that period of time, the pharmacist had so much power over the pharmacist 

Mike Koelzer, Host: had power over you because they knew that you needed them, that you could not physically jump in. 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: At that time, Mike, it was not uncommon for a pharmacist to get on an average of two to three calls a day from a recruiter.

Uh, I agree with Tim. That was very stressful during that time, because it was my job to manage all the pharmacists and to get them to do what we needed them to do and to work hard and be incentivized and so forth. But by the same token, uh, I had to do that with great kid gloves because I really could not afford to upset anybody.

It was a difficult time. So if they needed to go to a Saturday market, go work for them. If they said, I need to be off at five o'clock today because my kid has. Mark and go out to the store at five o'clock and work for them because I couldn't afford to send. And it was pretty stressful. It's 

Mike Koelzer, Host: kind of like kids, you know, once you have three kids, as they say, they kind of have y'all numbered.

Yes they do. They know that you can't say all right, get outta here. Not that you'd want to, but Hey, get out of here. You're fired. I'm going to come in and work these next three days or whatever. And I don't need you. Not that you'd want to do that, but you can't have two people say that at two different stores when there's just one.

Mark BonDurant, RPh: Yeah. W we were fortunate. I mean, they certainly had that power, but it was very seldom exercised. In other words, I, I don't recall people threatening me, like, well, if you do this and I'm like, but on the other hand it was, it was there. And they certainly knew that. Uh, okay. Well, if, uh, if you don't want to, if I can't be off every Saturday, you know, well, I can go do here and I, and they'll let me off every Saturday.

Or, Hey, did you guys know that everybody got a 15% raise at Walgreens this year? You know, it was, it was there and it made it difficult. My management style kind of evolved from that. 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: A lot of our employees, Mike, were pharmacists that were married and they worked for a change too. So we'd constantly hear what was going on at Walgreens or CVS or Kroger, uh, you know, a different place.

Their spouse was a pharmacist too. Yeah. So, we heard that and he's right. It wasn't like our farmer. You [00:10:00] know, try to, you know, squeeze us. I'm not trying to say that at all. And I guess that also comes back to your question that you're talking about, you know, the financial risk. You know, the reason those things bothered you was the financial risk of not being open and knowing that you are not going to make any money unless that store is staffed or for me, or market various points, the risk became okay.

If we don't handle this, then, then my life is going to change. I'm going to have to drive. 50 miles to go work in one of the stores or something. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I remember those times, well, they didn't have to say it for you to know it. Everybody knew that you'd picked up a magazine and all of a sudden you'd be working there and the daily mail would come in and drug topics or something would come in, you know, or the state association magazine and say, you know, here's the income of the people and stuff.

And. I think what was most difficult for me during that time was that I came in with my dad being the pharmacist, and it was never really made clear to the rest of the team that I was now their boss, or I was the president at the time. And so what I started doing basically as I started managing through motivation.

Okay. So I was managing people just by smiling and trying to motivate them with your language. 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: Well, I think you, you then would put so much of that burden on yourself, Mike, that you, you know, I'm either going to tiptoe around this and I'm going to let this happen, but you're not going to really be a, an active manager because I really can't because I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings.

You know, one of the books that we read and we used in our business was that one minute manager book to try to help us, you know, it's, it's not bad to tell Mary to come in on time. And actually I can tell you a story that I can remember having a tech who'd come in late all the time. Now. She was really nice.

She had family problems. Her dad was abusive. Her mom was an alcoholic. She had all this stuff, but she'd come in. Five minutes, 10 minutes late. And she'd come in, you know, with our two big gulps, you know, and a cup of coffee for you. So you're like, oh, she's so nice. You know, but, but the problem became that everybody that worked with you is like, oh, well, Tim's.

To Tim let's that happen? You know, finally I kind of realized that, okay, this is probably bad. And I had to sit down with that technician and say, first, I know you, you work really hard while you're here. I know you got this stuff happening at home, but you're not being fair to your fellow employees.

And I had to put down the, uh, you know, you hate to say this to someone, but I had to say, if you do this again, your saying that you don't respect the people that you work with, and I'm going to have to tell you, you can't work here because I can't have those people think that they're not as valuable as you are.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Right. And I think what happens too, it's either in the case of having more stores or in our case, it was me not being around so much is. People almost start to forget where their paychecks are coming. You start having the pharmacist, who is the employee pharmacist, but that sort of becomes their leader. And they're almost a team revolving around that person.

And you're almost like an outsider, even though you're the one that's, you know, throwing in the money every week. 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: I think the number one thing you always had to gain with employees during that time, and really, I guess always is. You know, you can talk about loyalty or there you'll never win by managing by fear and to get respect.

I mean, you have to. And I think that's why we had a lot of really good people. I think they, they, they came to respect our methodology the way we like to run business. We always tried to do the right thing. We always tried to treat people fairly. And, uh, and I think that mutual respect is what kept us in business during that time.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Don't disagree with you, mark. I don't disagree that it was respect, but I think for that respect to come. They also have to know that you are the guy that could become a real bad-ass if you had to, even though they may never see it, they know what's there. 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: I can't control what that person is going to feel when I say something.

But I have to say, I have to be honest to them because the one thing that someone will lose their respect for you with, and they'll completely lose your trust as if you're lying. I mean, you've got to say. This isn't good. And when I say this isn't good, this doesn't mean that you're a big fat liar.

Like, and I think there's now, you know, that stage in our development as pharmacists and, you know, we graduate, we're young professionals and immediately we're in a management role, but we've never managed anybody. Right. So like [00:15:00] part of the thing that we had to learn ourselves as pharmacists is how to be a 

Mike Koelzer, Host: manager.

You're exactly right, Tim. And if you're not true to yourself, you're going to take it out on your dog at home, or you're going to take it out and doing something, eating too much or drinking too much or whatever, because instead of putting the process into the discussion where it should be, you've kind of internalized it and that's not going to be good for him.

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: And it's really not good for the person you work with either. I mean, they, they, they may not really want to get better. They may be lazy, you know, but as a person, you really, you, you come into work, you want to do a good job. And I wish as pharmacists, we are trained more and communicate with people that we're managing.

We spend so much time talking. The nuts and bolts of a pharmacy. And you know, how, how does medicine work? The chemistry, the bioavailability, whatever the stereochemistry, the pharmacokinetics. But we don't talk about how to deal with that angry nurse or that patient or how to motivate somebody, but also how to discipline somebody with, with, again, everybody has a different personality and how they do it, but not doing it can cripple your business.

Mark 

Mike Koelzer, Host: and Tim, at some point, then people are coming to you for a little bit of advice here and there. And at some point you say, Hey, we can take our advice. We're giving, turn it into some consulting, eventually get paid for that. And that's what you 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: did. We first started independent RX consulting and that kind of started because we are really good at starting stores and buying stuff.

And then our newest venture is pharmacy transition partners, where what we've kind of found through our experiences, transitioning your business, which can also mean selling it and selling. It can be a chain. It can be doing other things independently. It can be an employee. It could be to a hospital.

There's all these people that you can transition your business to. The great thing about starting a business or growing a business is it feels so good when you exit a business, even on retirement. And you know, Mark's a little bit closer to retirement than I am. Even our own personal transition is hard, you know, as we become this guy who was able to come in and I lead all these people, now I'm just advising people.

Mike Koelzer, Host: How many pharmacies between you two, have you sold clothes? Whatever of your own. 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: Um, we, we have sold, I would say about 25 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: that's a time. Um, one of them was a flagship store that Tim's grandfather started and that his father ran for many years and, uh, Tim worked in, and also it's the store that I manage for 15 years.

So that was a real personal sale when we sold. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Unless you're building a new store right next door with the same hours and everything. I imagine every one of them came with some happiness and also some angst by either you guys or the employees or, or someone was going to have to go through some change.

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: Well, even a relocation is hard. We've also relocated 10, 12 stores ourselves. I don't know. You know, it was always trying to get that better location, closer to the corner, more visibility. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Oh, you're not even counting that as one of the sales, that's just moving 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: to a different thing. No, no. It's like, sometimes you're just moving.

Like again, you talk about. Uh, we ended up selling the actual physical building and moving a block away to a bank. 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: Yeah. And anytime you have changed, it affects the staff. I always say no one likes change except a wet baby. Right. So, yeah. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: That's true. That's true. Yeah. And they also say, if you're a business owner, you sleep like a baby, you wake up every half hour and cry.

I imagine with 25 sales or transitions out, would it be fair to say any of those work to get rid of negative gains? Like you decided that it wasn't the right neighborhood or the right place to have a pharmacy. What percentage would you give to those 25? As far as nice, happy sales and some that were like, eh, let's just get out of here for whatever the.

Mark BonDurant, RPh: W, well, we, we had a couple stores, I would say what two or three that we'd started and didn't go as well as we thought. And, uh, and, uh, and we needed to exit, but again, you know, that's a, that's a decision that you have to make because, uh, at some point it becomes obvious that that's not going to be a good store for you.

And it's time to. But, uh, and, and most of the stores were sold in lots. So we sold a lot of them at one time. So it wasn't, it wasn't an individual, a time of being happy or sad. It was, it was both, [00:20:00] you know, and that's the thing that you have to realize as a, as an owner is that, uh, you work in most cases, you work all your life and you, and especially a single store owner, and you've got one chance to sell that.

You know, and so that's, that's a major, major event in your life. And so you ask, oh, is it happy or is it sad? Well, you've worked all your life in some cases for that moment. And you do get a nice financial windfall from it. And in that sense, it's very happy, but by the same token, it's absolutely guttering.

To, to know that you won't see those patients that you've got, uh, got really close to or that, that, uh, that it upset some of the staff that, uh, that they didn't see it coming, or they didn't know it was going to come, or they felt like that. Uh, in some cases they felt like you'd be trading their trust and board to have that feeling, uh, is abs.

Was really difficult and still is really difficult. You do have to do what's best for your family and it is a business. And so, yes, there's a lot of acts that go with that, but you also have to be bold and make the best decision. That's right for you. You know, you did take the financial risk to build it and you have, it is a business and you've got every right to 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: sell it.

And for me, Mike, I would say that I don't think there's one transaction where we sold a store that I can tell you that at the end, I felt happy. You know, any time that the hope is gone, you kind of feel bad. So, I think as an, as let's say, an individual owner, or let's say you own two or three stores, 50 stores.

And I've had friends who have sold a hundred stores. I don't know any of them, unless you were so disconnected. That can say that. Oh, well I felt really good. Now I can say that I felt good that the transaction went well, that there wasn't big stumbles, but, but there's always that there's always a little bit of disappointments in a transaction when you're 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: selling.

But by the same token, I would sit here today and tell you how amazingly blessed. I was, and still am today by the sale of those stores. It's so, yes, it, it, it, it jerks your heart out, but, but it would also be wrong to say that there's not a lot of good that comes from it too. 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: Let's say you've need to sell, or I want to sell those are different situations.

Right. You know, Mark's right. I mean, we, we, we did well, you know, in our. Our business owns multiple stores. That benefit is really to your face. You know that you get to retire, you get to do things or where are you going to invest in different things. There, there's a great opportunity that you get, but, but, but all of it comes down to, I think, you know, we were talking about earlier, all these things require that you are going to change.

There's going to be a change for me. I'm the guy who I want to control as much of the changes I can. Like I like, I don't want, I don't want you to go. Come in tomorrow and quit, or you tell me that you're going to pull my line of credit. I want to tell you, I want to exit this. If that makes sense. Like, I want to have that kind of freedom 

Mike Koelzer, Host: back on the family part.

You always have to do what's best for your family. And here's why I think to someone else that could sound selfish. But the thing is, I've always been amazed how somebody can come into me and. Tell me that they're going to put in their two week notice and. I've got to be, I try to be truthful and I'm like, okay.

You know, I try not to show much emotion and sometimes I'd be pissed, but I would pretend like I was happy. And now it's like, I don't pretend. I'm just basically all kinds of emotional. It's just proper. The owners are supposed to do that for the employees, but the employees, if you were just to say to them, you know what, you're about 49% good.

About 51% bad. I think I'm going to play the ads on this one. I'm going to get rid of you and put out a won ad. And so you're done. You're the monster for that while they can come and you have to pretend like you're happy for them moving on. And here's another one: customers, like, if you feel bad about doing something for a customer, like they're going to, they're going to miss this or that.

Well then like the one customer you were thinking of, they come in like the next week and they say, I got to move my prescription somewhere else, because my copay is 50 cents cheaper at that place. You can get something like that. So it's just, the balance is not there. And so if anybody's listening to this, that is thinking about that you always got to go with what's best for your family because.

Nobody has put as much thought and the blood, sweat, and tears into it [00:25:00] as you have. And frankly, nobody cares that much. 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: Oh, you're, you're absolutely right. I think those decisions that that's, that always came down, uh, I mean, You know, a family to protect and take care of. And it's your job as a business owner to try to make a good decision.

So, that may require that other people's lives change because of your decision. But ultimately, I mean, that's why. I guess that's why you're a leader. That's why you're the owner. I mean, you have to make that decision and you shouldn't be captive to other people's feelings for that decision. Now, if you were a jerk about it, I mean, that's a totally different thing.

I mean, you know, you've, you've got to do that, just like that employee. You talk about who gave you their two weeks notice? I mean, you don't have to be smiling and, and. Thankful and all, you know, like, cause you are disappointed, you know, this is your lead tech who just gave you two weeks. Notice. I had no idea that you were going to go take this hospital job or whatever.

So, I mean, you it's, it's hard emotionally to know what to do. All I can say is like in all those things, be professional. Be professional, be professional, be kind, always go into the thing of being kind and kindness doesn't mean that I've got to go give you a $10,000 partying gift. It means that I treat you with respect, but you should do that as an owner or a manager all the way through your business career, because, and as you know, our pharmacy businesses are kind of like a, call it a fraternity family, right?

Oh, you're like, I don't know. We're not six degrees removed. I mean, we're like, we're, we're so close to that. I don't want to piss Mike off or mark off because they know Bob or Sally or Sam or Saeed. I mean, like everybody kind of knows each other through somebody. So you, you need to do that. And maybe that's good about our business because you are held accountable.

You know, someone who's not that good of a person. You know, maybe they really shouldn't do that well, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, on that point too, the employees that don't understand how small the world is sometimes are not making the best choices. Cause it's like, you know, it's a small world here, you know, as far as how that person left and things like that.

Mark BonDurant, RPh: And I, and I do have a lot of sympathy for when there is a sale for the staff, because you know, that. Along with respect comes loyalty. And we always tried to go both ways and I can see from their perspective, you come in today and you tell me you sold the store next week and you didn't tell me, and now everything is going to change and I've got to go work for a chain or find a new job.

And I know that that must just be terrible. I know that and that, and that's, I mean, so yeah, it. Yank your heart out knowing because I feel that, but by the same token, you know, it's for the same reason. So we just talked about, um, you gotta do what's best for your family. And likewise, when people came to me and said, I'm, I'm leaving, or I'm taking a different job, I always tried to keep that in mind.

Uh, you're doing and aligned that I frequently would tell my pharmacist is this. I know you've always been. Careful and thoughtful in your decision-making. And I may not understand it, but I certainly respect that. It must be a good decision for you and your family, so best of luck. And if I can help you in any way, And that's all you can do.

And that's what it 

Mike Koelzer, Host: should be. It should just be fair. The problem is the whole world thinks that the companies are terrible for this. When in fact people get to come in and, you know, employees get to come in and do that. And customers get to leave too. It's just not fair. I don't know. It just seems like we were put to a higher standard on 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: that.

You are again, it's like it's as simple as anything. If you're. You're going to be held to a different standard. You know, you're, you're an owner, you're a small business owner. You're held to a different standard. Welcome to entrepreneurship 

Mike Koelzer, Host: with this 2017 DIR dive. I'm thinking that there's pharmacies that are doing stuff that I've always kind of feared.

Like what would that look like when you've always run something successful? And it turns on you. I think that may be one of the best things that someone could have. Would be, you don't want to stick around in a bad situation, but it seems like time would be something that would be something valuable to have some time.

It just seems like there's an angst for people that think that their world turns upside down overnight and they go from, okay, I'm here with my family. I get a few afternoons off a week in this and that. And I've gone down now. I'm homeless. My family's broken apart and we've all been shipped out to different homeless centers.

And my kids are in the, you know, you know what I mean? It's like, people's mind goes from top to bottom and you think this happens in 12 hours, but it probably doesn't. And how do companies, I know you guys don't [00:30:00] focus on this and it's, it's a very negative thing to focus on, but do they pull your store away overnight?

I know that doesn't happen, but people just think that in their. 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: I think what buys you time is knowledge in the sense that the more you understand your business and have the data that you can see, and you can, you can forecast and make that decision three and six months, 12 months down ahead of time, instead of waiting till it's too late, you know, that's what buys you time.

So understanding your, your important metrics and the, and the story they're telling you. So do a little plug for independent RX consulting. I mean, that's, that's one of the things that I think we do well is that we give a full dashboard where you, you can see that that's going to happen, or you could predict.

You know, when you're going to run into trouble and that at least does buy you that time now. And the people that really run into the problems are people that lose track of their fundamentals. And it seems so simplistic to say, you know, that when your sales go down or when your profits go down, the first thing you have to look at is how you're paying.

But, it's true. It's a fundamental and, and where we see so many failures with, with people is that, uh, when, when the DIR dive hit or when the reimbursement members go to. And we look at their payroll and it's never changed. In fact, it's increased or, or their purchasing habits. They've never, they don't go back and try to renegotiate anything nor do they watch their inventory.

So really those two fundamentals it's, uh, or the things that you first have to look at now that's simplistic and, and yeah, it's not always just that there's a lot more to it, but. But that's what buys you time? 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: I can remember when I had, you know, the, you know, a few stores and I was the one who signed the paycheck.

So I felt like I had some control. I saw that every week now we've gotten things so automated that, you know, I don't really even see the time clock. They submit it to this online payroll processor. And then I'm kind of historically looking at things instead of proactively, you know, used to be in the pharmacy.

We'd have our schedule up and you'd go look at it to see, oh, you're supposed to work 40 hours and I've got it. You got an hour and a half and overtime. I could see that so easily when I was a man. But, now with technology, we've kind of lost, you know, basic common sense where we don't know what we spend on what we spend.

So like, if, if, again, whether it's your wholesale bill or your payroll bill, if you don't understand what I spent, you're, you're kind of running blind. And if you want to get more time, you, you know, one of the things you should do is today, you should look at, you know, for instance, the payroll, we should look at that today and say, okay, what is my payroll?

How do I compare to other people? And then I have to go look at the, I guess, what is the chain doing down the streets? And I know we as independents, we don't want to be the chain going down the street, but if we want to get time, Thing we can do is be better stewards of the money that we have now. And it's you talking about doing it for your family, like making that decision to finally sell?

Why don't we use that same decision when we're deciding whether we need honor and 50 hours of tech time or 110, you know, we don't think about it that way, but if you think about it, maybe that personally, maybe then. You know, we'll get more time before we see these things hitting. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Here's where I think the problem is that DIR thing happened so fast.

And so deep cutting, you would have to cut your payroll half almost, but then do the same amount of work or, you know, more work. And then you're looking at the thing that. We talked about, about not wanting to get back on the bench 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: when first hit. Oh, I remember that very vividly. Uh, we sat down as a team and made a list of everything that we could possibly cut.

Uh, as soon as we found out about DIY cars and sons, all what the impact was going to be, and it was things like, uh, discontinuing our 401k. Uh, uh, uh, cutting back any pharmacist's overlap that we had in any of our stores, even when they were busy. Uh, some of it involved me, me working a little bit extra bench.

Uh, we had a pharmacist that was kind of a project person. We lost that person. Uh, we, we looked at our payroll and, and, uh, as far as technicians and cut that, and it was a whole host of anything that we could possibly cut, even if it was a few hundred dollars here and there. You know, we did. And that was, it was, it was a difficult time because, uh, in, in another thing I learned there, Mike was, you know, uh, I would say I made a mistake perhaps with our pharmacists at that time, because I thought being honest and [00:35:00] transparent was the right thing to do.

And I showed them how much. All we're trying to do is stay even don't you think for a second, that there's another dollar going into MRI's pocket because it's not the case and I'll show you the, and I showed them the exact numbers, but what I learned from that is that what, that, what that made was the team also lost hope, you know, that they also thought, well, then why, you know, this, it just really hurt morale.

And if I had to do that over again, I would have still made the cuts. I would have still looked ahead and done all the things that we did. But I wouldn't have made it there. 

That bit me right square in the ass 

Mike Koelzer, Host: on that one. Just what you're saying, 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: when these DIRs hit us, I had pulled in my three leaders and 

Mike Koelzer, Host: they knew things were going down.

I mean, you could see stuff happening with the reimbursement and stuff, but 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: I tried to let them know, Hey, here's what we're going to try to do. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I'm going to try to do this, try to do that. And unfortunately, 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: two of them got cold. feet They left when they left morale went down because I was there more now that's not as bad as it sounds.

It didn't go bad just because I was there. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I wasn't bad because they weren't as used to me as much because I was at home more. So 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: I was like a new face 

Mike Koelzer, Host: there for them more, but 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: I lost like, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: like 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: half of my staff, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I fired some half of my staff pretty much was gone 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: in the end. It worked out perfectly because they quit and 

Mike Koelzer, Host: they moved on.

Mark BonDurant, RPh: I didn't have to fire them, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: but I would have had to have fired them by now. 

If I could turn back the clock and handle it again, 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: uh, 

I still would've made the cuts, but what I would have told people is, 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: uh, 

you've always trusted 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: Tim and I 

to make a good decision. And I hope you can understand that 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: we, 

These are necessary decisions.

Mark BonDurant, RPh: And so you're just going to have to trust me. While it seems like that we're cutting things 

for us to keep our boat going 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: together. You know, 

you're going to have to trust us that this is what we need to do. And I would have left it at that. I wouldn't have showed them the 

numbers. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Tim, you talk about what the chains are doing down the road.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but maybe what the industry is doing, but some of the chains handle that by taking a 40 hour person and cutting them down. Right. 32. They're not just 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: firing them, right? Oh yeah. They cut them down to 30 hours. So they get the benefits away too. Oh, I think you're right.

You, you, don't one of the mistakes that I think it sounds like you make the same mistake, Mike, as an owner, as we, we try to bring them up to our same level, like as we're making this decision so that they can be, I don't know if we're looking for empathy or a pat on the back or, oh, I understand where you're going through.

You know, like, I don't know what we're looking for, but, but the reality is that's, they're there. That's not what they're going through. I mean, that person who, even that person was at 20 hours, going to 16 is impacted by that decision. But, but all you can do, I think what, and I think we're kind of all saying the same thing.

You really just have to be honest with them. Hey, here's what's going on. We're making less money. We've got to make some changes so that we have. Yeah. You know, first off, we want to take care of as many people as we can. And, you know, we want to have all that say our benefits and we want to have the service that our customers expect, but we, things are going to have to change because our reimbursement is changing or the industry whenever you had to tell them.

But our problem was probably giving too much information when they really didn't. It wasn't even that they didn't trust us. They just didn't know. I mean, they had no clue of, you know, what, why does that Caremark check or, you know, check from, you know, look 10% smaller? Well, it's because there's a DIR fee in it this week, you know, they didn't know that stuff and they don't 

Mike Koelzer, Host: really need to know all that.

I'm not even sure if I should have shared anything until I had to make the cut. I 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: agree. I think you, you probably would've been best to just wait until you had more of a solid plan. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: When I think about it. Our time that I had to deal with mainly last year, I guess it was, it was a couple of things. One is, I didn't really feel like firing people.

And two is, I didn't feel like working harder. In the meantime, I was chewing through money and the part-time people and them. They were used to going up or down because they told me, Hey, I can only work 13 hours a week. So I have class and this week it's 25. So those days were no problem. Let's say you had 10 full-timers somewhere across your business, and let's say you had to come down 75%.

Would you have tried to get rid of two full-timers? Would you have cut everybody down 25%? How would you handle that if you were dealing with full-timers? 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: Well, I think depending upon your size of your company, you know, maybe it doesn't matter the size of your company. I think to me, it would be to limit the impact to as few people as I could and what I find, and I think mark can agree with this is, as you're looking at that, the best thing you can do is talk to a friend who's not informed.[00:40:00] 

The perspective of pharmacy has sometimes been twisted into listening to what everybody else is doing. It can make you sometimes just miss the complete obvious. I think Mark and I can probably share the same experience that some of us, our best thinking was outside of pharmacy. 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: I think Mike, when it comes to payroll, you have to make a decision forward and not backwards.

What I mean by that is this, you start that decision by. Here's how much I have to spend. I got $3,000 a week to spend as opposed to thinking, well, do I cut Mary? Do I cut Sally? Do I cut these hours or whatever? You start to make a decision with that. That's all I got. And then from there you craft. Okay. What do I have to have?

What, you know, what's the minimum I can have and you build it up from there because so many people start that backwards. Well, I'll cut this person or this person doesn't need the job as bad as that person or, or even on, even on normal times when we're not talking about a ship sinking, we're just talking about normal ties.

People make their payroll decision by saying, well, how many prescriptions an hour should my technicians fill? Well, that's not the question. The question is how much money do I have to spend on paid? That's where you start to make a decision. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: So instead of thinking what you have, even though you've got full-time people going, you say, what can I spend?

Who do I need for that? And then you make the cuts accordingly. As soon as next week, 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: you have to make the decisions based on that, because if you don't then, then the ultimate thing is you're out of business. You know, if, if you were at a cash only restaurant. And you could buy a hamburger for $15 for a steak for 35 and you only had 15.

What are you going to get? It's not like, well, I really, I kind of liked the steak, you know? Well, you don't, you don't have it. So, so, so you have to say, you know, this is what I got and I've got to make this work because if I don't make it work, then you need to come talk to pharmacy transition partners.

Because if you can't make that work, you're going to go. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Finally, when you look at all the skills that are needed, when you finally get to a decision where you say, boy, it's 50 50 between letting two out of eight, go or keeping 10 at a, whatever that would be finally, you might need to make that decision.

But the first two are based on money skills. What's good for your family on and on. And at the end. It probably won't be all things. Even at the end, you might have to make that decision of whether it hurts a few or many, but that's not your first decision. That's wait on the line 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: and everybody can and will disagree with your 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: decision.

And the first decision is exactly how much I can afford and you, and you have to have resolve to make that decision, because if you don't, you know, you may think you're a good guy by protecting everybody's job. But what you're really doing is saying in a few months, no one will have it. So as hard as that is, and as hard as it is to say, well, okay, now we're working with half as many people and doing twice as much work.

If that's your only alternative, then you have to make that happen. I've had this discussion with countless owners that I'll tell them, this is what you got to spend. And they'll say it's impossible. I, I, I can't, I can't do that. And I'll say, well, here's what the numbers tell you. If you don't do that, then you won't have a business.

You have to make it possible. You have to look for ways to be more efficient. Maybe you've got someone that has a skill, but they also do some things that other people can do. And you've got to reassign that and say, well, let's get a cheaper person to do this, this and this for you or reassign it so that you can go do bigger jobs for me because I need a, I need to rethink this now.

So you've got to look for efficiencies. You have to look for different job assignments, but, the bottom line is you have to make it work under the number of yet. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: If someone couldn't pull the trigger and if they said, I just can't do this, and you're saying, Hey, fine, don't do it. But in three months nobody's going to have a job.

And they say, well, what do I do? Have you guys ever gone in there and pulled the trigger? 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: I've never gone into a store personally, but I think on several occasions, I've had people say, you know, my consultant tells me I have no choice and puts it all on. 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: Yeah, I would encourage them to, sorry, you gotta deflect some of this now, the first person to blame it, it's best to be truthful about it.

Right. And if the advice you've been given, I think for us, sometimes it's a bank, you know, I got to do this because I'm not within the confidence of a bank deflecting. It is a natural way to feel okay about it. It doesn't mean that you. You're changing the decision or that you're, you're being dishonest about it.

It allows you in some ways to have the freedom to say, Hey, I've looked at this a lot of different ways. I even had a consultant come in and give me some advice. And this is what we're [00:45:00] going to do. 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: I mean, Mike, look how much easier it would be for you to come to one of our stores and look at our financials and look at our workflow and how easy it would be for you to write.

Well, you could cut this, you could do that differently. That's so much easier than an owner sitting in their own store, making those decisions that he knows personally and affects their lives. So, yeah, it's a great use of a consultant to say, just tell me what I have to do and say, well, they told me that I had to do it.

That's what. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: All right. So here's the problem that I've got now back 10 years ago, I fired a couple of guys. I hit a certain negative mark in my bank account, and I always said if I hit that, I'm going to get rid of these guys. And I got rid of them. It was great to be able to have something to blame it on.

But now I realized I was in the same position a year ago. And I realized that it all comes back down to me being lazy and not wanting to fill in for them because the first time back in 2011, I didn't have to fill in for them because we cut some hours. I kept enough staff on part-time and so on. It all comes down to me, not wanting to work hard in the pharmacy.

I just realized that I'm not a chicken. I'm just lazy. 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: That's the power of wealth. I mean like that you can make decisions for yourself, but. We become so handcuffed by those decisions because we don't want to hurt others' feelings. And we don't want to impact, let's say even our family. I don't want to tell my wife, oh, I'm sorry, honey, you can't spend $2,000 on groceries this month.

Everybody has to figure out a way to be kind to each other. But we also have to be honest, you know, if that's, if I only have $3,000 to spend. You know, that can also impact you and your family. And I'm sure it did Mike, like, as you were making those decisions, like the cashflow that came back to the owner was also impacted.

I'm not sure. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I think that's just what put me in 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: more. Uh, I mean, if the money's not coming in, you, you end up going into debt. It's true, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Tim, you talk, you've got eight kids. I've got 10. And so I always have seven at home and sometimes I have 10 and I dunno, I could make them. God knows I'm not wasting away.

I could probably eat less and save some money there, but I don't know anything about pharmacy here. Here I think what happened is it happened so fast. It happened in reverse. The DIR came up almost behind you. Nobody wants to go out and find a new pharmacy job. They might not want to work a lot in their own pharmacy, but God knows they don't want to work too much in someone else's pharmacy.

Mark BonDurant, RPh: One of the things, I guess, a closing thing I'd like to stress is that if you feel you're on the Titanic, then at least know where your lifeboat might be. In other words, Reach out and educate yourself on what your options might be. And so, so many owners don't have any idea what their store might be worth or how to do it, and it gets too late and then it's a fire sale.

So, you know, when you're first seeing, Hey, I might have some problems, even if it's not even in your mind, uh, maybe I have to sell myself. At least learn about your option, reach out and say, Hey, if, if this would go this way, guys, where am I at? What should I do? And, and, uh, so I, I think that's something that people need to keep in mind.

Mike Koelzer, Host: There's, COVID, there's a DIR fees or all that, but look at the positives. Getting to know people like you tells our listeners that there are people out there that understand that with one phone call, you guys can get on and really help people see where they are and where they're going and so on. And so there's good and bad, but ultimately everything's good.

Yeah, 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: no, uh, I think that's where we, we've got to feel professionally. I mean, look at this, this COVID, it could be. Negative, but what happened? I mean, we got the Supreme court case of Rutledge in our favor. Um, the whole immunization of this vaccine is going to come down to community pharmacists to deploy it in our communities.

I think we're going to see ourselves transforming our places, leaders and community health care. So we, we, we actually, you know, this has been a bad year for, for all of us, but. Change creates opportunity and opportunity creates discussion and discussion creates new thoughts and new thoughts create new business and new opportunities.

And sometimes they're the end of a career. Sometimes they're the beginning of a career. So it's not so bad 

Mike Koelzer, Host: when you bring up the Rutledge, but there's a chance that doesn't pass. If COVID wasn't there. I mean, because these judges are humans and they've heard of pharmacists on the front line. 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: They're not in a bubble with the ATO decision.

I don't think we would have gotten. I agree 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: is certainly one of the more difficult times of pharmacy, but by the same token, Mike, I go back to this, you know, uh, if I turn [00:50:00] back the clock to it back when Tim was taking out my trash and I would go and I would go to, to the, uh, community pharmacists meetings.

And inevitably there'd be these grumpy old men. I call them grumpy old farts that sat in the back of the room and they would tell me, this is 19. You know, I don't understand why you're in the pharmacy right now. You know, it used to be a good thing. And now it's just terrible. We got, you know, insurance companies are starting to come in, and change.

They're used to not being changed around here. I ran my store for years. I didn't have any chains. 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: Exactly what I was told, why not to go to pharmacy school if you remember. 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: So, so I heard it then, you know, and then w w mail-order comes along well, that's going to be the thing that. We're never going to survive mail order.

We're never going to survive $4 prescriptions. We're never going to survive this and that. And so, yeah, it's, it's tough, but you know, I I've, I guess I've heard it for 40 years and the bottom line is this people need what we're selling and it's not prescriptions. It's relationships they can get, they can get prescriptions through.

That's true. Or some, some computer robot can spit it out and you can go put your card in and probably get that. But what they need, they need the relationships that community pharmacies offer. And so it's not like we're selling typewriters, we're not selling something that people don't need. So that's where I get my hope that somehow or other this reimbursement model will come around in time because people will understand this is something.

Our society needs it. Yeah. And 

Mike Koelzer, Host: COVID has proven that not only do they need relationships, but unlike, maybe waiting for tennis shoes to show up from Zappos or waiting for something to come from Amazon, they need relationships. You know, when they're crying on the phone or whatever they need them, like in 30 seconds they need action.

They need action and they need someone to talk to. Guys. Thank you so much. Uh, what a pleasure talking to you both last time I got stuck with just the young bucks. 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: Comforting and grandfather. Yeah. 

Tim Clark, RPhs, Pharmacy Transition Partner: You get the grizzled veterans now. Uh, thank you very much, Mike, for having us on. We really appreciate it. 

Mark BonDurant, RPh: Yeah.

Thanks Mike. And I, and I really enjoy your podcast and what you do for the pharmacy 

Mike Koelzer, Host: committee. Ah, thank you. It's really rewarding. All right. Very good guys. Thanks so much. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you.