Improve your Public Speaking | David Weinandy, PhD, Professor of Communication

Speech to text:

Mike Koelzer, Host: [00:00:00] David for those who haven't come across you online, introduce yourself and let our listeners know what we're talking about today. I 

David Weinandy, PhD: I am David Weinandy and I teach at Aquinas College In Grand Rapids, but I do a lot of training on communication topics and speaking myself and one-on-one coaching as well.

Mike Koelzer, Host: All right, David. So when you're undercover, when you're in an audience, all right, what drives you batty about speakers? What do you say? I can't believe that this guy is in this position. He's on the stage and he's doing this. What is the, this that I'm talking 

David Weinandy, PhD: about? Well, they're various, this is I guess, to various degrees.

So first of all, somebody who is dishonest or ethical or lying, and I know that, but other people don't know that, or I think to myself, you're being a little manipulative, even your logic. It makes sense, but you're preying on a potentially vulnerable audience that drives me crazy. Are 

Mike Koelzer, Host: They are manipulative because you know something in their past, or are you saying that even when they're up there and you don't know them, you can still see they're being manipulative.

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, both, I suppose. So usually I think people are manipulative when I do know that they're just trying to achieve their goal. They're just trying to persuade people for their benefit as opposed to the audience's benefit or society's benefit. And there they're relatively self-serving and there are certain situations where I think, you know, I happen to know that you are using a persuasive strategy that works really well, but it creates almost like a psychological vulnerability.

And that's why it works well with this particular audience. And I personally wouldn't do that. And so, that will drive me crazy. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I'm not buying that, David, I think that 

David Weinandy, PhD: you, that I manipulative and 

Mike Koelzer, Host: manipulative, I would argue that anybody on stage is trying to manipulate. Something, you're trying to get your way now, if you're a good manipulator, you might say, and that manipulating I'm doing, what's good for the audience, but isn't it all good, especially for business talks?

Isn't that usually always good for the 

David Weinandy, PhD: speaker? Well, there are a lot of times when I'm advocating for a course of action where I would say for me, I'm not going to gain anything out of it. Oh, I'm just advocating, for example, for a group of people, I'm trying to get you to donate for this. Cause even though I need the money for it.

And I think it's when you intentionally know that you are trying to gain something from an audience for your benefit, your organization's benefit, and you're using a strategy that we know. Is going to psychologically manipulate people, but just being able to achieve a goal, that's not manipulative because we also have to be good consumers.

We also have to be good audience members and we have to be able to say, well, wait a minute. I need to listen with critical thinking skills. Every time somebody presents to me, otherwise we would be running out and we would be buying every product that we see advertised on TV or whatever. I mean, it, we're not 

Mike Koelzer, Host: passive.

There's a responsibility of the audience. All right. So how do I know when I'm being manipulated by someone on stage? What are they saying to me? 

David Weinandy, PhD: It's not that easy. It depends. It depends what the topic is. It's as individual as the topic itself and the way they develop content. Sometimes we just get a gut feeling.

First of all, it's not intellectual, it's not logical. It's more emotional. And you begin to say, wait a minute, you're preying on my emotional state right now, or I don't trust you because I know in the past you have done things that have not indicated that I should trust you, or you are just presenting information that is statistics.

Our statistics, but they're being manipulated or they're being shown in a way so that they will lead me to a certain conclusion. And when I started to feel that way, I started to say, I'm going to do my own research. This is one person's perspective, but I'm going to do my own research as well. And at least they have me starting to think.

So that's good. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: If someone sees me on stage, or let's say, they're listening to this and they're saying Mike's just a manipulator. I don't think I am. But what if someone thinks I am? What could I tell someone on stage? Is there a way to tell someone on stage that I'm not manipulating them, but that's a [00:05:00] 

David Weinandy, PhD: right.

But when you have to announce it, you're not manipulating somebody. Okay. That's a, so how do I do it? Well, I think it goes back to credibility. I mean, I hate to go here, but oftentimes whether it's advertisers or whether it is politicians or other people who are persuading us, I think it's an issue of credibility.

And even our good friend, Aristotle who wrote. Thousands of years ago and people are like, oh, it's so, you know, you're going to get academic honesty. You're going to get professorial. No, I'm not. You wrote something today. And we'll see if in a few thousand years people are still quoting you. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I think you're manipulating me now.

Cause you know, I don't know Aristotle that's like me saying the great Abe Lincoln said 

David Weinandy, PhD: something. Well, I'm sure he did say something, but you know what Aristotle said, that credibility is not simply competence. It's not simply for example, that I see your little credentials or your certificates or all of your schooling or whatever, or your years of experience, which oddly enough, when I'm introduced as a speaker, that's the first thing that people in dimension is why I'm credible.

Why do I have that information? Okay. Competence is one aspect of credibility, but so are things such as extroverts. That you, for example, seem like your passionate, you seem like you're excited about your topic, but not in a script way. Not that you're scripted and that you have been so planned out in what you, what you say Aristotle also said and others as well, by the way, said those things like my perception.

Because credibility is audience centered. I don't care how credible you say you are. It's what other people think, how much do I think that you have things such as trustworthiness is another aspect of credibility. So do I perceive that you would not lead me down the wrong path for your own gain? And sometimes we base that off of not fair physical cues.

For example, you just have a trustworthy look or, I mean, we know that people who speak taller, people get increased credibility simply because they grow or, well, it's not actually just hype. It is the amount of space you take up. So that's why when I have smaller speakers, I say it's important that you gesture perhaps a little bit more or move around just a little bit more, but things like.

Is an aspect of credibility. My perception of your warmth and sincerity is an aspect of your credibility. I've worked with people before where I said, you're technically a textbook. Perfect, but I sense little to no warmth out of you whatsoever. You're so stiff facially or whatever. You just, you, you look like you're just gazing at me.

I want to perceive that there's a warmth that people would want to hear you. Those are the people who we want to interact with. Those are the people who we want to listen to. I mean, think about your friends who you'd say, Ooh, she seems very, or he seems very cold. These are probably not the people who we want to listen to, or that we want to take their advice.

So it's, it's a whole gamut of things that can lend to that aspect of will. I believe. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I could be John the Baptist or someone up there, but if I'm not a good speaker, I might be not credible and not trustworthy to them, even though I am, it matters what the 

David Weinandy, PhD: audience thinks most certainly always credibility is an audience focused concept.

It's always the other person's perception of your credibility. That's what's important while I'm teaching. If I think, well, I know this I'm good. I'm good. I know all this because I've had so much schooling. I know all these theories. If my students say he's not credible at all, they're not going to listen. And so it's kind of useless.

Mike Koelzer, Host: So a pharmacist listening, who has. At least a few letters behind their name. And typically now everybody's got the different certificates for this or that, you know, you're saying that doesn't hold a whole 

David Weinandy, PhD: a lot of water for them. Well, it doesn't hurt. I wouldn't say it doesn't hold water. It holds a lot of water because like when the dentist leaves my little room or my eye doctor or whatever, I do go look at their little certificates on the wall.

And I say, oh, look at that, look at that. But we also want to be perceived as if I'm being treated as an individual that I'm being treated as a Dave. I'm not just another person who has come in. I'm just not you doing like, I'm another cog in the machine who could be replaced. I may be your customer. I pay your client, but I am still Dave and that you care about me and that you will [00:10:00] ask questions.

You'll take time to listen to me. I don't want to feel as if what I hear coming out of your mouth is so scripted that you could say it to anybody, especially when we're dealing with health and healthcare. It's an intimate relationship automatically. It's an intimate relationship that I've come to you as my pharmacist, and that you're supposed to care about me.

And I'm supposed to perceive that. Well, how would you 

Mike Koelzer, Host: define public speaking? Obviously it's not Margaret and I, when I get home talking to her right. Is it a customer? Is it a luncheon? Is it a zoom call in front of a certain number of people? How would you define public speaking as we talk today?

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, technically it is one person to an audience. Okay. And usually the audience has more than one person in it. If it's just one person, then it's usually interpersonal. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You've never been to some of my functions. 

David Weinandy, PhD: And then I would say you're having a conversation and interpersonal conversation. You're not doing public speaking, but if I get there, or if the occasion is one where I say there is going to be this speaker and only two people show up, it is still public speaking.

It's still, or if 7,000 people show up, it is still public speaking. So it doesn't really matter. Uh, too much. I don't focus so much on the numbers for me. First of all, I tell all of my public speakers don't even think of it as public speaking. Because as soon as you think of it, as public speaking, in most cases and instill sphere, most of us get afraid if, well, not a part of the audience, but usually if we're the speaker, all of us get a sense of fear and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

What you want to do is you want to create a conversation. You might be trying to create a conversation with one person. You might be trying to create a conversation with 500 people, but I want to individually get people in that audience to feel like they're listening. Speak individually. So I'm trying to create interpersonal bonds with them, whether it's through my content and making the content relevant for them using examples that apply to them, whether it is because I am excited to be there speaking to them.

And I'm willing to show that kind of excitement, whether it is because of my eye contact and that I'm making direct eye contact with individuals. That's a great way to. Um, to make sure that you're creating those bonds. Um, don't look at your note cards. Don't focus. Are your notes at all, or pages of papers in front of you?

Your notes? No, the presentation. There's no need for you to speak to the notes. There's no need to speak to a screen. If you're using PowerPoint and keep turning your back and facing the screen, most of us have computer monitors in front of us. And even if we don't, we should know what's coming up on this screen.

So it's not something where we have to turn around. But what we want to do is create those relationships with individuals. All 

Mike Koelzer, Host: right. So 5,000 people are in the audience. When you say a relationship, are you actually trying to make eye contact with someone and talking to them? Well, usually 

David Weinandy, PhD: when it's 5,000, well, not usually, but oftentimes when it's 5,000 people, you could be speaking under stage lighting as well, which makes it even more difficult.

You're in an auditorium. So what you do is you look to sections of the audience. You don't look simply at people who are looking at you, for example, and you start to say, oh my gosh, it's these three people in the front. They just have such great eye contact and they're so engaged. So then all of a sudden you start just hogging the conversation with them.

Or you're looking only, I mean, traditionally we looked down the middle and across the back more than to the sides, for example. But we went to look at sections of the audience. And as you, whether it's a balcony or wherever it happens to be. And when you look at those sections groups of people weirdly will feel like they're getting direct eye contact with you or 

Mike Koelzer, Host: the group does as a group.

They feel 

David Weinandy, PhD: That yeah. And individuals within the group think, oh, he's looking at me, he's looking at me. Um, and, and looking at this, this string section uses examples that relate to specific groups within the audience. That's a way to create a bond, make it memorable. I mean, there's no good speech. If it's interesting and I learned something, but then as soon as it's done, I know, I don't remember a thing.

12 years 

Mike Koelzer, Host: ago, I had a chance to do some public speaking on a larger level than just grand rapids. And so I had gone to the college where you teach and I called up there. I said, [00:15:00] anybody that can help me there. And you came to light your claim to fame at the time besides all. Now I know it's just your good looks, but at the time, your claim to fame was as an instructor.

Ms. Michigan, who then became Miss America. So then you and I met up and I was going to prepare to give this speech to different parts of the country. And you offered out of the goodness of your heart to help me out. I'm not sure if you gave me great advice. So because when you told me if you're nervous to picture yourself in your underwear, 

David Weinandy, PhD: never, never, ever.

I don't think that was good advice. I never ever give that advice, but it's picturing the audience in their underwear, not yourself wrong, but that is like, no, no, no. And actually I still do work a little bit with the pageant people and I've had multiple by the way, miss Americas. But I also work with the Miss Wheelchair America program, which is awesome because oftentimes you're dealing with women, obviously in this particular case who sometimes don't have.

Uh, voices like the rest of us, do the norm of what people consider. For example, they're using voice activated computers in order to speak, or they have cerebral palsy or whatever. So there's disfluency in their speech or you have people who are paralyzed very frequently are paralyzed from the neck down.

And so they can't gesture the same way. It doesn't matter. Or just being seated. We're just viewed differently. Everybody deserves the microphone. At some point, everybody has a message and everybody has the right as a human being to be listened to. So I do work with those groups. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Someone is disabled on stage and they have no credibility in my mind.

If I'm an audience member, I give them that credibility. You said, that's my, that's my right. As an audience member. If someone doesn't have the statue, the height, the size, the dominating voice, all this kind of stuff. How do they gain that from me? 

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, they can gain. Well, it depends. I mean, a lot of times they actually, in this trigger case that community might have increased credibility, depending upon the topic.

If they're talking about what it's like to live, even with pharmacists, what it's like to go to a pharmacist and have complications because of a disability, they have increased credibility because of personal experience that they can use stories they can use. They can make us feel that anybody can make us feel.

I often say, you know what? Use emotion. As persuasion or as a retention tool, as much as you use logic, if you think about what do we remember in life? We remember more of how we felt than what we thought. And when I, when we talk about landmark times in our life or, um, ceremonies or even movies, we've seen, we remember how they made us feel.

So I say, well, it's okay to make us feel that way. It's okay. Also not to assume that you don't have credibility as a speaker, you get up there and you own that stage. No matter if you're in this regular case, rolling onto the stage, or if you're walking to the stage, you come up with a sense of confidence and engage with the audience and, and you'll get that credibility.

You'll get that credibility. And I think so too. Because times are changing. Um, I think that there isn't just the stereotype that certain types of people, um, don't have credibility. So that's good as well. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Is there any way to know when I'm speaking to a group that I'm gaining their credibility or losing it, we always 

David Weinandy, PhD: I want to be engaged with the audience.

So if you're looking at the audience and for example, they look bored or they look disinterested. First of all, it doesn't mean that they are disinterested. Some people just have a board look on their face and in life they have a board look. So a lot of times I will. Try to imagine people are very engaged, but I want to be realistic about it.

You do an audience analysis, not just before you speak or after you speak, it's an evaluation then, but you do it while you speak and you say, are they with me right now? And if they're not with me, how am I going to get them back? You know, do I need to go back over a concept again and give an example because they didn't get it?

Is it because I'm giving them too much too quickly? Am I not giving them enough information? Um, there's a whole variety of things that we need to do constantly to say, all right, are [00:20:00] they engaged with me? Maybe they're I hate to say it, but maybe they're not engaged. And therefore you're not perceived as credible, I suppose, because you are too.

You just seem or look like a dollar and you just seem dull and boring because it looks like you're not even engaged in your topic, but we don't see ourselves. Oftentimes we see, well, first of all, we see the reactions others give to us. Um, but we see ourselves kind of from the inside out. So I think, oh no, my voice, my voice is very engaging.

And then it's like, no, it's not. You've taken your, your range. You've taken your pitches and you have flattened them oftentimes because of anxiety, you've flattened them. And you're not monotone by any means. I mean, truly if somebody is monotone one tone, that's crazy, but, but you've taken that range and you've squished it down.

And it's like, why aren't we usually engaged with people who don't use the highs and the lows and are in their voices, or do you vary your pitch or not your pitch, but your, your pace rather, do you vary that? Do you, we need variety, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: But how do you know David, when you're talking to a group, how do you know if you're gaining that or losing.

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, first of all, ask yourself, would you be interested in you that's 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Like asking somebody on American Idol if they think they have a good voice or not, that's subjective. How do you know objectively if you're hitting the audience? 

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, of course it's subjective, but so is every audience member.

It's not an objective. I guess I would ask somebody in the audience who I trust for feedback. I would look at my evaluations and say, honestly, are there things on there that I could change? I always tell people to videotape themselves and to not just which people hate it, you say, oh, no, we are very in tune with ourselves.

No, we're not. We don't even want to watch a videotape of ourselves because all of a sudden it's like, oh, I do that all I moved this way. Oh, I tell people, you videotape yourself and you watch it three times, three different ways. At least probably more than three times, you watch it with no sound. And you say, would I be interested in this person non-verbally and what that person's doing?

Do they show facial expressions? Do they have eye contact for, you know, a period of time, they don't have fast size that are just darting all over and they're looking at the audience, but they're really just gazing over people in the audience and scanning. They're not really making eye contact in our culture.

The United States, we usually say three to five seconds of uninterrupted eye contact. Um, you know, and I would say, okay, does this, this person. And do they have variety in their gestures that are natural, the same types of gestures maybe popped up just a little bit that you would have if you're in a conversation.

Okay. You watch it that way. Then I say, watch it with only the sound. Okay. So you're really just listening. You're not really watching and turn away from it and say, would you be interested in that person, focally? Do they sound excited about their story? And then watch it with both? You know, what I often say is, and it doesn't have to be that we have to always be a cheerleader, but I often say that when I go to an athletic event, even I've gone to two with friends to root on their team or whatever, and I have no vested interest whatsoever, usually in sports, much less in a certain team.

And I think why is it that all of a sudden. I am that guy. Who's now cheering for this team that I didn't even care about. And I don't know anybody on it. You know what? Passion breeds, passion. If you want other people to be passionate, you have to be passionate. And passion does not mean you have to be a cheerleader.

Passion is conviction. Do you have a sense of conviction about your topic? And I think to myself, you know what, um, there are well, oftentimes preachers or other people who I listened to, or I think it is so still in that audience, it is so quiet right now, but it's not quiet because people are disinterested.

It's quiet because people are listening and you could literally hear a pin drop in that audience because they're right with you, but you are not allowed speaker, but I can feel your sense of conviction is that one 

Mike Koelzer, Host: of the clues of listening to the audience and. Quiet unless they fall asleep. But you think that you've you've maybe captured 

David Weinandy, PhD: them.

Yeah. And I think there are just some common sense things I would say to myself. All right. Well, what bores you as an audience member? Somebody speaking, you know, in many cases I'm asked to do four hour [00:25:00] training. I would never do a four hour training straight through without a break. Unless for example, I had activities that are meaningful as a speaker.

We don't just do activities or people in groups so that they can play. It has to be relatable. If you are giving people information, they can use it, people are generally going to be pretty engaged. Um, and you know, it is trickier if, for example, for about the past year and a half or whatever I've been doing most of my training or presenting through zoom and I think, all right, so.

Is that the same, I'm speaking to an entire audience and I often don't see, you know, but we still have to teach people to look into the camera. Okay. But just because you don't see people's eyes, it doesn't mean that you look at the little squares on the, I mean, you look there occasionally, but you don't look at that on the screen.

You look at the green light or you look at the camera because that's going to feel like the most direct eye contact we know with zoom. And there really is very little research that's out yet about this. But, um, but with zoom, if we say that we want eye contact, when we're in person, when we're face-to-face about maybe 60% of the time with audiences, we want that to be about 70 to 80% during a zoom presentation and realizing that people do get zoom fatigue.

And that, that they've been doing it all day and that we can only listen so long. So we. And we put it into soundbites if we have to, it's not okay to just think, well, this audience automatically is going to want to, or need to hear what I say. I think every time I speak, I don't care. How many times I've talked about the exact same topic.

I say to myself, Dave, you have to get excited about this and you have to make it relevant to them. And you show it in your facial expressions. Even when there are times when I'm thinking, I don't even see these people, I still want to get excited about it and make it apply 

Mike Koelzer, Host: to them. You mentioned audience size and you're doing a lot of the same things, the same for audiences, whether it's three people or 5,000, you still want to interest them and make them feel connected and so on.

Right. If somebody who talks on zoom with a dozen people there, or then talks to 50 people at a luncheon, are they prepared for a thousand people? Oh, it's always different. It seems that when you're bigger, I don't know if the two men nature, it seems like I've seen people when it's like a bigger audience.

They actually almost naturally get bigger. It's not quite conversational anymore. What, what happens in those cases? 

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, and it's wise to do that. If you are, for example, the larger the audience, we often say the more we animate our facial expressions. Now this can be, I mean, it's dictated by, there've been times where I have.

To like, let's say 800 or a thousand people, but oftentimes at that size, there are video screens off to the side. So they can still see me pretty directly, even if they're way in the back. But we do that to an extent there's almost like a curve, a linear relationship where we say, okay, increase it, increase it, increase those facial expressions based on the size of the audience.

And then don't just keep increasing them to the point where it's a clown. Like, but, but a lot of times, I mean, we, we level off at some point, but it's a lot like stage. Stage makeup is not the same as normal makeup so that we can see features more distinctly. And so I might emphasize certain things in my voice a little bit more if I'm in a larger group, you know, the bigger thing that I find when people speak to larger groups and by the way, larger groups aren't always the more difficult groups to speak to.

There are many people I work with who say I would rather speak to them, and I feel more comfortable speaking to a group of 200 than they do to 10 people on a board. That makes me uncomfortable because every single time somebody looks away, I'm distracted every time, you know, I just feel comfortable in that sense.

And it can't depend on what your background is. Like sometimes I'll say to people in this size audience that it's very large trouble. You. And they're like, no, because I took dance lessons when I was little and we had to do a dancer's cycle. So I'm used to being up on a stage and being in front of people.

Um, so it's not necessarily just the size of the audience, but it's your perception. But if the audience is larger, it's easier for them to tune out. So I always want to make sure you're not going to tune. If at all possible, because again, I'm going to make the information as relevant to you as possible, where you can't wait to hear the next thing I have to [00:30:00] say.

And I'm going to try to connect with you. I'm going to try to create this interpersonal relationship with you, where you feel a sense of commitment to me and to the topic as well. You know, so much of it is mental. It really is. It's like, you know, I can get myself all worked up. If I say, oh, there's all these people.

There's all these people. There's all these people. We beg people all day to listen to us. We get mad when our kids won't listen, we get mad when coworkers won't listen, when nobody listens. And now we say these people will listen. And then all of a sudden we're like, oh no, don't listen to me. Don't listen to me.

If you start to hyper focus on the fact that they're watching me, they're watching everything I do. They're, they're critical potentially of me. If somebody starts to hyper-focus on that, that's what I usually say. Okay. Get more engaged with your content. Think more, even more about the content and the audience, as opposed to yourself, your just the little microphone, you're just a conduit and it starts in the beginning of the presentation.

It starts in the introduction. A lot of times people will set themselves up for failure in the very beginning of the speech or presentation. Well, first of all, I don't even call them speeches. I just say you're just talking to people. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: It seems these days, you know, and I think I'm up, I think David, that I'm sort of a victim of COVID.

Even as a small business owner, I've done some special things, whether it's setting up a group function or something in town or something like that. Right now, I'm saying like, I don't need to learn about public speaking, but I think it's because I don't need to think anymore about public speaking, but I think some of that's because we haven't seen it in the last year and a half with COVID, it just doesn't seem like it's part of my, on my radar anymore, but there's still going to be times where I have to get up in front of a, a wedding reception or some, you know, some pharmacy weekend coming up or, or something.

And, uh, boy, it's kind of like out of sight, out of mind for me right now. 

David Weinandy, PhD: It will, that, that is, there's a lot of things that are out of sight out of mind for us that are normal right now, but it's coming back into normal. And actually what I'm finding is that, that people now on the other end are training and, um, just presentations that I do, they crave live human contacts and that they want live speakers, whether it is for a community group or church group.

I mean, you, as pharmacists, you are a part of our community and it's vital, I'm a part of an educational community that goes out into the community. And, and so are you as a pharmacist? I mean that, I want to feel that bond. I don't want to feel like you're getting. A pharmacist. I want to listen to presentations that you would do at my church, for example, or at any other type of community service organization or at a school.

And I want to begin to feel like all your mic, the pharmacist, because if you're Mike, the pharmacist to me, I probably am going to feel a sense of affiliation and want to go to you with issues with, with my business, quite frankly, because I think, okay, you care if you're willing to go out into the community and speak to us, it's not just about.

I'm not just a business for you. You care about me and you care about my health and that's important. So I find that right now, at least for me, people are craving live speaking, as opposed to, um, through again, mediated technology, whether it's zoom or some other webinar. Oh yes. And even when, when I'm doing customer service workshops right now, or working with people in customer service, what I'm finding a lot is that people who answer the phones right now are finding that they cannot get people off of phones.

So that's interesting, but it's not because they have more questions, but it's because the sense of isolation that we have experienced and, and just because you haven't experienced as much isolation because you've been in a profession where you still had to go to work, or you have people living with you, there are a lot of people who have not had that.

And they feel more isolated. So then even when they get you on the phone and electronics are not you, it's your frontline person on the phone. They have, they want to elongate the conversation because it's like, oh, oh wait, I haven't had a conversation like this with the person, even though it's not in person, it feels more personal because [00:35:00] it's one-on-one.

And so what we're finding is customer service. I have people that say to me, how do I do this? How do I manage these phone calls with people who want to talk longer and dah, dah, dah. So actually I'm finding now that people are craving and wanting live presentations. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: All right, David. So I started by saying that this executive from this big organization got up on stage and just was.

Again, I'm not putting myself up there. She's just terrible. Or darling, if they stink up there, I'm not saying poor darling. I'm saying you should have learned this by 

David Weinandy, PhD: now. Well, I'm not saying that to the person. Well, potentially, potentially, just because you're skilled in your expertise area doesn't mean that you're skilled in presenting.

I would say that that's oftentimes the time when I would choose somebody else to make the presentation, I would say you're not an expert in everything. And you have to trust the team member for example, or not 

Mike Koelzer, Host: hiring him or her knowing that part of their job is probably going to be getting up on stage.

Once 

David Weinandy, PhD: In a while, I've worked with managers, for example, who have been really good at motivating their team, really, they have really high numbers, crassly. They just, they brought in a lot of money, but you're right. They weren't good at making presentations at. At the director level too. I've worked with CEOs, I've worked with vice-presidents and it's not as if we say, okay, you get out you're you are, you just were not a born speaker.

Well, first of all, there's no such thing as a board speaker. Um, instead what we say is, all right, let's have you work with somebody or work with people to make you better at this skill. And let's get the skill development up to the point probably where you're going to even feel more comfortable and confident making the presentation.

And a lot of times it's somebody external actually from the organization. I find that it's probably best to be able to do that because they have an objectivity and they also don't have a vested interest in it like I'm hired a lot of times to work with people through a human resource department. And all of a sudden that is my job.

My job is to be. Reinforcing, because a lot of things, people do great things that they don't know they do. And I say, oh no, you need to keep doing that. But it's also to say, no, we need to change this behavior because it's not great. Or you're so stiff. You're so professional that you look like a textbook.

You look like your PowerPoint slides. You look so institutional that I'm not engaged. I want some personality to come across while you're speaking. If 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I own a company, and I know that someone's a terrible speaker instead of me going and telling this person that and beating around the Bush, saying, you're not going to get up on stage.

I'm going to hire Dave and let Dave say that to them. 

David Weinandy, PhD: It's kind of like, you know, your mom or your dad telling you certain things versus even a teacher at school saying it's just, we were just receptive differently. And some people also just have an expertise. Like when I've worked with a person, I don't say you use the day formula, you become Dave.

And this is what's made me successful as a speaker. No, it's me being able to say, all right, for your context and your situation and your content and you. How can we make this so that you still are Mike speaking? You're not Dave speaking. You're Mike speaking and you're still uniquely Mike. And how can I work with you to feel confident?

Because a lot of things, that's what it is. People don't feel competent enough to be themselves. And it doesn't mean that you show every aspect of yourself. It doesn't mean that you are, you know, so often we hear, oh, be real, be whatever you still have your company manners on. Okay. You still are. You have your company manners on and you're authentic, but authentic can still be bad.

If you're an authentically, a bad person, Ted Bundy, Ted Bundy was authentically a mass murderer. It does not mean him. He was good. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You can be an authentic asshole. 

David Weinandy, PhD: You certainly can. And it's like, and sometimes we see that, like, if we talk about. Group communication and staff communication. I often will hear people say, oh, Dave, when I'm asked to come in and work on a staff or work with a staff and help with their skill development.

And it's like, oh, well, that's that's Mike. Oh, that's just me, that's just the way he is all. We've just learned that dah, dah, dah. I'm like, no. No, that doesn't give him the right to be offensive. That doesn't give him the right to be sharp like that, just because that's who he is. It's like, no, no. And that's hurting your business [00:40:00] and perhaps it's not a great fit.

It also hurts the overall environment for most organizations or teams. I've been a part of it's like that person is a grump and sometimes I just need to have a come to Jesus, meeting with them and say, you know, and sometimes it's just an unawareness. I mean, it really is. They're just poor self monitors.

And I just need to say, you know what, this is the way you're being perceived, but that truly is not their heart. But unfortunately I can't see your heart. I see the behaviors 

Mike Koelzer, Host: in the day and age of the cancel culture where you say one wrong word and basically you're fired from an organization, or at least that's potentially, that's what people are thinking.

Whether that's true or not. If I'm a CEO or if I'm in charge of something. I'm not going to let anybody get up on stage in my organization. Like I talked about these people that I thought were terrible speakers at the wholesaler convention. I'm not going to let them get up on the stage with a few words, outline.

I'm going to make them read verbatim. When they're talking to a group, am I 

David Weinandy, PhD: wrong? I guess it's dependent upon the situation. But I would say for me to use a manuscript and to do manuscripts speaking, first of all, you're a control freak. If you can't even trust a person to be able to go off script a little bit, then I hope you're following them around with every single customer.

And I hope that you're following them around all day to make sure of that. You have to have some 

Mike Koelzer, Host: trust. We've a devil's advocate though. They're onstage. They got video cameras on them and all of a sudden they say something. Now my job's on the line. 

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, of course it is, but you're talking about the exception.

You are not talking about the norm and you're talking, you're truly talking about outliers. And if somebody is going to say something offensive, first of all, the first thing I would do afterwards is I would point it out to them. And depending upon what the situation is, I probably would be doing some damage control right afterwards.

But I literally can think of almost zero situations in a business situation where I've seen that happen. People are usually so nervous and they're so focused on their content that they are not thinking about it. Well, I think I'll make this off-color joke unless they're silly and still think that humor is the best way to start a speech.

Mike Koelzer, Host: And this isn't a best man speech kind of 

David Weinandy, PhD: thing. Yes. And even, okay. Let's go to that for just a second. The only speech that should be memorized. Where you're not allowed to take notes up or anything like that is a toast, for example. And if you're doing a toast, which is oftentimes, they're not always the best man or best woman or whatever now it's, everybody gets to do a toast to the wedding.

Um, first of all, you don't take out little sheets of paper, even if it's not, it's supposed to feel and be so sincere that you wouldn't need notes. It's about the other person or it's about the situation. It is not about you. It is not about your relationship with that person. Um, but it should feel sincere and warm and, and it should actually be a memorized kind of thing.

Then you should not have been drinking beforehand. Liquid courage does not help people. David, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I love you. And I love your professional advice, but I'm going to go against you on this one. All right. Number one, 

David Weinandy, PhD: poor. Mike's a bad speaker. Go ahead. You've been drinking like a crazy man right now before your kids get married and then you get up to give the toast and you think you did a good job.

And all you did was give yourself anesthesia. So you don't remember it. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Listen, I think that best man speeches should either be written or illegal. Let me tell you why. 

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, if you write it, you still can memorize it. Bear with me here. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Memorizing stuff does not work because you get up there and you forget like the third word and then you're just screwed.

Have you ever memorized 

David Weinandy, PhD: something? Um, I worked at Cedar point. Are you kidding me? I had to memorize everything. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Are you really saying memorize 

David Weinandy, PhD: a toast? I would not take notes. I would, I would, at the very least have to memorize the bullet points that I want to cover and I would practice enough so that it's still, I'm not saying memorize.

So it doesn't, it sounds like the pledge of allegiance or the, our father you're saying 

Mike Koelzer, Host: memorize your three or four points or whatever it is 

David Weinandy, PhD: you have to say, of course, and to, and to still let it be conversational. But if you know me so well that I, I choose you to be my best man. And you have to pull out notes to talk about [00:45:00] me.

I have a better man that needs to be doing this. I 

Mike Koelzer, Host: think that best man speeches should be illegal Here's why. 

David Weinandy, PhD: Go ahead. Well, they 

Mike Koelzer, Host: are illegal. You're 

David Weinandy, PhD: saying, well, now that's probably something that I'm going to agree with you because a lot of times they're they? Yeah, they don't, they don't serve the purpose.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Here's what you got. What? The best man speeches. You've got somebody 

who's drunk sometimes. Yes. They've been on that little party bus beforehand. 

Well, any of my family. Oh, that's true. Yes Somebody who's drunk or any teacher, friends of 

mine.

You got someone who's drunk. They're not nice to them with the phone on average. They're not used to a microphone, right? They're not used to being in front of people. That's number three. This one, you're going to say, well, boy, you got some issues, Mike, but I'm just going to say it here. Okay. They're best friends with this guy.

The groom and arguably the bride have taken the best friend away from the best man. In other words, the best man spends less time with the groom because of the bride. So he's a little bit pissed off that they haven't gone hunting as much. They're not fishing as much. They're not going to the bar as much.

They should have got married. So the best man, subconsciously he's a little bit pissed off. All right. And don't piss off somebody who has a lot of private information about someone else. He knows all the stories about this guy and he can do a lot of damage. So now you've got those four things. You've got the most important day of the groom and the bride's life.

You put those five things together and best man speeches should be. 

done away with 

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, and you should be institutionalized, but that's a whole nother issue. But, but I do, I do agree with you to some point. This is not a venue where most people feel comfortable. When you asked about the large audience, for example, it's kind of comparable to that.

You know, you're at a reception where there's a lot of people and like you said, you step up to the microphone and it's kind of like the perspective of the room is different. We're used to seeing the room from our little seats and the audience, everything is different and it makes us nervous. And sometimes when people are nervous, they will, their inside voice goes outside and they start talking aloud things that they normally would just be saying to themselves, whether it's reassuring things, you got this, or whether it is crazy ideas, or they think all of a sudden they have to become a comedian because they're in front of this audience.

I do agree with you that sometimes it can go very well. Bad or it can go very long, which is very bad. And that it's, it's sometimes out of fear. That's what I tell people. Whenever you are speaking, everything I say makes sense. Whenever you're speaking to a large group, you should get there ahead of time and you should get the perspective of the room.

When I, I, I think about a time when I had to, well, I didn't have to, I chose to speak for breakfast, which is hard because it was a breakfast with about 800 people sponsored by Kellogg. I might add. Um, and I, and so they had all their breakfast foods there, even though it wasn't Kellogg people there, but they sponsored it.

So I was going to have to be speaking over people, eating. There were about 800 people there the night before. And it was me on the setup crew. And I was, I hopped up on the stage and I was like, okay, I need to look at this because I've never been to this ballroom. Right. And I need to look at this ballroom.

And get to the point where I've gone through mentally, at least part of my presentation. So it's not new. It's not shocking to me when I hop up here tomorrow that I think, okay, how am I going to engage with those people in the back? What are the sight lines like? Will somebody be introducing me? Will I be the sixth person on stage?

Will I have a podium? Will I be Mike? How will I be Mike? Will I have a lot of leader mic? And so I can move. Will it be stationary? When I feel like I have control because I have knowledge, my, my anxiety goes down. If I have control over my voice, if I have control over my body and my hands aren't shaking, I have control over my technology.

That's when most of us start to say, all right, I do, I've got this, I've got this. And so even during a toast, even though. Not the point here, but during a toast, when all of a sudden I, I stand up and again, it's a very similar situation. People are waiting to be, to be served. They'd been drinking. Um, and I stand up and it's jarring to me and it's like, wait, wait, wait, I didn't, I've never spoken like this.

It almost makes us feel catatonic. Like I just [00:50:00] want to get over it. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I think with this fun of talking about the best, man, I think we hit the nail on the head about the size, where I can picture a pharmacist, especially with COVID, you know, relax now. And I think a lot of times it's going to be that lunch and where you're either maybe giving a sendoff to one of your coworkers or you're accepting a new position in that spot.

And I'm picturing, you know, 30, 40 people, something like that. What are some tips to do that? We talked about getting to know the room, you know, what else can our listeners gain to give them confidence? Situation, several 

David Weinandy, PhD: things. First of all, I think that you, as pharmacists, should not be waiting to be asked to make these presentations.

I think that you should be active and that you should be out saying, how can we be out as ambassadors in our community, speaking about whatever the issues happened to be. Um, so that would be my first thing. Uh, the. Um, there are so many things to be a good speaker. First of all, realize why you're there.

How long do you have, what time period do you have and why are you there and what do you need to be a good speaker? Do you need a glass of water? Do I need a podium? And I don't even stand at one, but I just psychologically needed 

Mike Koelzer, Host: there. You need one, even though you're not behind it, it's almost like your wing man.

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, and I, I have my notes usually sitting on it and stuff and I, and I use it to store things and stuff, but I bring one with me in the trunk of my car, just in case they don't have one. When I get there, I'm like you do or I'll take a music stand or something like that. So that I, I say, you know what, Dave is always going to, I know what I need, and I'm not going to be a victim of a catastrophe, but I've created because it's like, no, no, no, no.

I would say, why is the audience there? You're not giving a canned speech. You're, you're making it as specific for this group. Whether it's a group based on demographics, they're older, they all have a similar type of concern. And that's why you're there speaking as a pharmacist or whatever, make it as relevant.

And interactive, mentally interactive as possible. Get off to a good start. A good start is to have an attention getter. Don't apologize. From the very beginning. Sometimes I often will hear people start with an apology and they want to lower people's expectations. It's almost like I can succeed if you think I'm going to be, if I'm going to get a C I, then if I get a B, I'll look like a savior, but if you think I'm going to begin a.

No. So they'll start off by saying things like, you know, I'm really nervous or I don't do this very often, or I know you've oh my goodness. You've been sitting here for hours. The last thing you probably want to do is listen to another speaker or, um, oh, I have to follow Mike and that's never easy to do, especially if he was drunk.

Well, especially a lot of times people will start by apologizing for their voice or, you know, all bear with me. I've been having problems with my voice all day. Yeah. That is 

Mike Koelzer, Host: so common. Practically. Everyone I hear is an excuse. I don't 

David Weinandy, PhD: need to hear about all your medical issues, if it is so horrible, you stay home.

Don't speak. Why are, why are you doing that? Don't start with an apology. First of all, Give me a preview of what is the, the overall goal of the speech or presentation and kind of, what are, how are you going to attack this topic? Well, give me a little schemata in my head, a little roadmap in my head that I can follow that you're going to fill in.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Even if your speech is real. You can still give that schematic, right? Of 

David Weinandy, PhD: course, because you know what, not everybody is an oral learner or an auditory learner, you know, that we need to see things. And it doesn't mean that, for example, I need a visual aid. I only use visual aids when I need them. I don't use PowerPoint very often.

I only use it when I need it, but it doesn't mean that I can't create a visual aid in the person's mind using language that appeals to all of our senses. We're very site oriented. Don't just tell me what I would see. Tell me what I would feel. Tell me what I would hear. If it's, people retain more information that way they were attained, when you make it relevant to them, they retain when you repeat information, obviously, but get me off to a good start.

You know, sometimes I will see people who will ask questions. In the beginning and then they're not prepared for the answers. So for example, rhetorical questions are always okay. As long as they're not endless, but we're, um, questions where they say by a show of hands, how many of you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then nobody will raise her hand. And they don't even [00:55:00] acknowledge the fact that no one just raised their hand or that it's happened half or that everybody raised their hand. And you should be able to respond differently depending upon what, what people just did. But people aren't always that flexible.

You know, I think that we do, we want to avoid phrases in the beginning of today. I want to talk to you about it as a filler phrase. It told me nothing. It's not a sexy attention getter, first of all, and it's you told me nothing today, David, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You are the sexy attention getter. 

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, I know that, but not everybody's me, Mike, when you end a speech, if you want to do a great speech and with a clincher statement and with, well, first of all, a summary of course, but a statement that tells the audience without a doubt that you are finished, it's almost like the exclamation point at the end.

It's very awkward if you finished and I don't know you're done, we, and then there's that awkward pause. And then somebody will say, well, that's it. And that's now your clincher. That is not a great clincher. Um, don't rely on things. It, unless you've been invited, if you've been invited. Thank you by protocol is okay.

If you have not been invited and you're just speaking. Thank you. Is not a replacement for question and answer sessions. Uh, so nice. People will say, oh, does anybody have any questions? Because they didn't plan enough. They didn't have enough content. So they were like, oh, let's say maybe a big question. And then it becomes awkward if people don't have questions.

Mike Koelzer, Host: What if you want to go into a question to answer, but you do have a talk first. Is there a good, closer, and then a good opener for the questions again, without just like moseying into the Q and a, 

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, I would preview it in the beginning and say that we will have a question and answer session at the end and I am going to reserve.

Five minutes. Well, it depends on the length of your presentation, obviously five minutes, 10 minutes or whatever. And then at the end, I would say, as promised for those of you have had questions and they haven't been able to take them throughout, um, let's, let's address some of those questions right 

Mike Koelzer, Host: now.

And that would be after you closed the speech sort of after your clincher line. 

David Weinandy, PhD: Yes. And you may need another at the end or usually there'll be somebody else who will say. You know, we're, we're out of time right now or whatever, and they'll close you for you at that point. But if it's, if it's awkward and nobody has a question, I would have two or three questions that I would have prepared as the speaker to say something like, you know, for example, I see that we don't have any yet, but some of you may be wondering about this and have a common question related to your topic.

But the other thing is that sometimes when people ask a question, I find that speakers don't know where to look. Do you look at the person who asked you the question and make eye contact with that person? Or do you look at, where do you look? And it's kind of like, if any time you've been interviewed for a job and it's a group interview, a variety of people at a table, for example, in you, I always non-verbally.

I started contact with the person who asked me the question. I expand out to the rest of the audience and make sure that I'm having eye contact with the entire audience, because it's a symbolic question that could have been answered. And then I end with that person visually with my eye contact with that person who asked me the question, because ultimately I want to make sure that they're satisfied in terms of the response or the answer, but I also need to make sure that they don't have a monopoly.

That they don't come back and say, oh, I have another question. I have another question. I will let them do it. Maybe one more. And then I see that there are other people, and I say, w w we'll come back to you or I'll have time to speak to you afterwards, but I want to get some of these other questions as well.

And then hopefully we'll have time to come back to your 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Here's another one, they get up to ask a question, but it's really their statement time. Yes. They're going to tell you how to run the world and then it might be posed as a question. Do you ever tell people like what's your damn 

David Weinandy, PhD: point? No. I don't do that.

Well, first of all, the person who invited you to speak and who did an introduction should be monitoring for that. And so that's why we, a lot of times , have people who monitor the questions and answers. We'll 

Mike Koelzer, Host: monitor it before the question even comes in. Yeah. Or 

David Weinandy, PhD: Just say, you know what, we have some questions for us, let's do it this way and we're going to structure it and they call on the people or whatever, because sometimes they're even familiar with people who will go on and on.

But, I would say at that point, that is a very interesting point that you made. Thank you so much. And then go on. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: What if you can't shut them up? You just try to get in there somehow. 

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, sometimes they're just going to speak and at some point, if it goes [01:00:00] on and on and on, then I would just be pretty assertive and direct and say, um, I love what you've said, and I would love to talk to you about this afterwards, but we do have some other people with questions and we only have a few minutes left.

So I want to get to some of those that make sense. And you know what, and sometimes you just do, you just have to cut people off at that point, you know, a few of them. Quick tips I would have is one with PowerPoint. Um, don't please do not just simply read slides to anyone. They can read them. Um, don't put too much on the slide practice with your slides in a large room or the space where you're going to be doing them.

Don't just look at your slides on your computer because as they, the, the font size and the colors, and the differentiation is very different. When it's projected into a screen in a real room where you thought something was so bright and vibrant and it's not. Um, and, and the other thing is I tell people where do you stand if you give, if you're given a choice and from the speaker's perspective, Should the PowerPoint slides be to my left, or should they be to my rights from the speaker's perspective, not from the audience's perspective.

And I usually will say in the United States that I want the speaker to be on the right. If we're talking about staging the speakers on the right, PowerPoint slides or the screen are on the left. The reason I do that is because of the way we read, we read going that way from, um, and so, you know, whatever is on from the speaker's perspective, again, whatever's on the right is going to get the most attention.

So I want it to always be speaker first, visual aids, second. And so if you have a choice, I say, you know, choose your side in terms of even where you're speaking. The other thing I tell people a lot of times is we need to figure out how to relax. We w I mean, your heart is going to be racing. Your respiration is going to be changing it.

You know, it happens literally to almost 100% of speakers, whether they're terrified or whether they're just excited to speak. And it's like, you know, and sometimes I tell people, first of all, choose the right topic and you probably won't be as nervous. I tell people, stop calling it a speech because the word speech puts a lot of us in a fearful state.

Um, sometimes I tell people, stop thinking, you have to be perfect. You don't, I don't have to be perfect. I don't have to be perfect, but that's the, you know, it's okay. Just be, you just be you. I also tell people, you know, use rational emotive therapy. Um, basically what's the worst thing that can happen.

What's the worst thing they have been? And most of us have these horrible thoughts in our heads. Oh my gosh. I'm going to be laughed at, and when we left that, even if you were laughed at, I hate to say it, but probably by the end of the day, nobody's going to remember that you were laughed at, I mean, we don't ever remember major 

Mike Koelzer, Host: news.

That's like when you told me to picture myself in my underwear, I 

David Weinandy, PhD: never ever would do that, nor would I tell people to look over people's heads. Is that bad? It's horrible. Why w why would you, we're not speaking to a back wall. We're speaking to individuals, so speak to an individual and it's less scary.

If you look at individuals, most of us say I could speak to Mike one-on-one. That's no big deal. I'm intimidating. I hope not. Well, when you or others get in an audience that becomes intimidating, it feels like it's them against me. Well, not if you break it back down and you say it's just my. It's just stave.

You're just speaking to us. It's okay. I would also say practice for goodness sake. Some people deserve to be nervous because they're winging it. Some 

Mike Koelzer, Host: people don't have a healthy respect to the microphone and they should 

David Weinandy, PhD: well, and the audience's time and they just, they go on best when I just wing it, uh, 99.9% of the time, the people who I've seen, who say that are not good at winging, it it's just rationalization for being lazy.

Mike Koelzer, Host: That's almost as prevalent as the excuses. It's almost as prevalent as yeah. I'm gonna wing it or they'll say, um, I don't need a microphone. I just like to stand up here. It's almost like that overconfidence kind of thing. 

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, and if you do have a strong voice, maybe you don't need a microphone and maybe that does take a barrier between, you know, it becomes a barrier between you and the audience, but you better be sure.

And you better have tested ahead of time that, uh, in a full room, whatever that means, um, acoustically. Everybody's going to be able to hear you in all spots. What if you 

Mike Koelzer, Host: get up and you know, you're going to have that shaky voice, you know, the [01:05:00] first words out of your mouth are going to be that, is there a good one, like take a breath right then?

Or is there a way, like, see your first word, doesn't come out, cracking. 

David Weinandy, PhD: It's proactive. It's practicing ahead of time. First of all, it is breathing. You know, I always tell people the first four steps of your speech, as you walk confidently up to the front, you pause and take a breath, you engage the audience and you provide eye contact before you've said anything.

You're creating a rapport, a positive rapport with the audience. Okay? So you take a breath because a lot of times people, they get that weak voice because they're taking any bitty little shallow there. They're not taking a deep breath, but the other things that you need to do is take care of your voice.

You need to hydrate those vocal folds. Um, and, and do it with a non-caffeinated beverage. And sometimes people are like, oh, well I had a bunch of tea right beforehand, this nice tea. Well, did the TF have caffeine in it? First of all, it's like, that's going to be dragging on the vocal folds, avoiding men. Um, that dehydrates us means there's a variety of things.

I usually tell people also to be aware of their voice. If you have a deep voice, that's a magnificent speaking voice, but it's not magnificent if you're not projecting it, it turns into mumbling. And so we want to make sure that we protect it and use the articulators and watch your diction and articulation.

So you're not saying well, typical Midwest things besides the nature of reality. And if that's the case, I usually will say, you know, do vocal exercises. I do vocal exercises every time before I speak, I will do the Bowflex. Yes, I do. Well, it depends what, what it is. I will just do vocal slides or sometimes I will.

Hum because of the humming nature. If I have a kazoo that's ideal as well, but the humming nature will actually allow me to feel the parts of my face, where I want residents to be. And I become more aware of that. It just warms up what athletes would use muscles without a warmup. It's not done, but we expect these vocal folds, which are mainly our vocal chords, whatever, uh, mainly muscle.

I mean there's cartilage and some other things, but we expect them to work when we've been screaming the day before or whispering that's horrible or we've been clearing our throat, doing that thing where you're just bashing them together. I mean, we don't take care of our voices. And then we went. Why did it, why was it horrible?

Or I've had people who have very high voices. I've worked with newscasters who, unfortunately, male newscasters who had high voices. And again, life isn't fair. And if you have a high voice, you get a childlike, um, demeanor that's associated with Mickey, Minnie mouse kind of quality, and it decreases credibility.

So we say, okay, I'm going to teach you to use a different part of your natural range. That's what we're going to do. If you want to save your voice and to be vocally best, do some vocal exercises. And then the best way to save your voice is shut up. Okay. Just shut up or speak your natural register. And that will get you warmed up.

Mike Koelzer, Host: I'm kind of getting fired up now because like I say, COVID made me think like these things didn't exist anymore, but it brings me quickly back to some service lunches. I've talked about one thing. You kind of get that fire going inside. He is again, and I'm looking forward to it. When someone will say like, do you have a visual or what would you need for visuals and visuals?

I don't usually have something I'm trying to show in that. Does it look bad if you say, oh, I don't know the visual, does it make you look bad? Like you don't know what the hell is going on. It 

David Weinandy, PhD: depends. I get this all the time as well. What technology will you need? Dah, dah, dah, and all this. And, and in most cases, now this is not the case during zoom presentations, but in most cases I say, you know what, I'm not going to use PowerPoint.

And it kind of scares the people who are hiring me or asking me to come in, but that isn't what Dave wants to do. And how I'm different is I will usually have a packet of information for them or handouts or whatever. And I go very old school and I say, you know what? I want this to be. And interaction where we're talking to each other, you're not talking to a PowerPoint.

And weirdly that has become my big selling point or one of them. And that people are like, oh my gosh, he doesn't, he doesn't make us listen to all these PowerPoints. And we've had all these other presentations where we're just, it's almost like you're getting zoom fatigue, but without zoom, you're just, it's this PowerPoint fatigue where you're just looking at a screen and it's fatiguing and all this.

And I'm like, Nope, I'm just gonna, I'm going to talk to you. And I'm going to do some exercises perhaps that are relevant that everybody can relate to. Um, and I'll have again a packet of information because I want there to be retention of information. [01:10:00] Or if I do PowerPoint, it will be simple PowerPoint. I follow the six by six rule.

No more than six lines. No more than six words across all that stuff. But I don't, I find that I get asked back time and time again. Not because I have credentials, not because I've done these things. I coach these people. Not because I have technology it's because I'm that folksy guy who is actually breaking the stereotype of, I don't want them when they hear I'm a professor.

Well, that's one of the things I do that it's going to be like school because most of us don't think, oh, school, that was so engaging. Oh, I loved the lectures. Oh. But you know what? I want them to feel like, again, you're having a conversation with me. And so all these concepts that we talk about, you should be able to use these interpersonally as well.

You should be passionate about your story. If there's one person, you should be a passionate listener. You should be. I mean, it's all these things that I'm saying in terms of public speaking, I want to do that when it's one-on-one, when I'm in a group, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: when you say conversational, but you're still in front of 50 people, 

David Weinandy, PhD: it's a heightened, conversational style.

It's 

Mike Koelzer, Host: obviously not conversational because they're not heckling back. Do you mean by that? Like in back, that's what I'm getting at. There is some conversation, even though it's not verbal, right? Yeah. Yeah. And 

David Weinandy, PhD: Sometimes they will, like, they will give me a look. So there'll be more women nodding their heads. I mean, quite frankly, demographically the research tells us in the United States, at least, um, that women are more nonverbally expressive and such are thought.

Some people will actually even do the back-channeling thing, the right. That type of thing. And that's great. I w you know, they should still be having a conversation in their head when I have a conversation with you. There's points where you're listening and quiet or points where I'm listening and quiet, but I'm still engaged.

I know granted again, in public speaking, I probably expect your style to be a little pop. Just a little bit more exuberant than it would be one-on-one, but 

Mike Koelzer, Host: That makes sense. Like we talked as the crowd gets bigger, you almost naturally, unless you're not able to receive stimulation almost naturally, you start doing things as a bigger crowd when it's one-on-one one and 5, 151 and 500, you've almost naturally probably have made things bigger.

Do you know? 

David Weinandy, PhD: I do. And sometimes I have to watch that because my gestures will get to be so big that I think, okay, I have to tone that down because I don't want them just to listen to the gestures. I want them to retain the information, but then there are other people who, when the crowd gets too large, the fear just makes them stiffen up.

And that's why I say no, we're going to go there ahead of time. And you're going to walk through, even without saying the words, you're going to say them in your head, and you're going to go through your introduction. You're going to go through the first few points and walk the stage. So to speak as soon as they can get rid of the unknown.

That makes me feel like I have control and makes me a listener. The more I know about the audience. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, you taught me Dave amongst other things. When I had to give my early speeches and I was getting up there and reading off the cards and stuff, and you're like, Nope, we're going to do it this way. In shorter words, one of the big things, or was that when I would go and he, and this was even with a relatively smaller group, if I could give him maybe a breakfast talk or something like that, I would always try to get through the night before, or even, uh, even an hour before, check it out.

I'd walk up to the post. Look it over, even if it was an hour before then I would go back out to my car or whatever, and then I would come back in. But what you've done there is you've taken away the thousand thoughts of what is this place going to look like? And you can just remove that from your head.

And the day before is even better. If you can sleep on it, then take away the variables. If you can. It gets 

David Weinandy, PhD: rid of the surprises. And generally in public speaking, I don't want surprises. I don't want hecklers, for example, hecklers anymore. By the way, people usually like when I was growing up, like at political rallies, for example, you would have people heckling or whatever, and now it's more controlled, but, but a heckler can be anybody who takes attention away from you.

So if there's a person, for example, who, who looks incredibly bored, they probably are. You become the epicenter of your being and, and it's a passive heckling. You still need to say, no, you don't know they're bored or just because they're bored at this moment, doesn't mean you can't get them back or maybe they're bored because they're just a boring person 

Mike Koelzer, Host: and you have no idea what's going 

David Weinandy, PhD: on in their head or exactly.

[01:15:00] And nine times, nine times out of 10, at least I will find that people were not bored, but they're just, they're just unaware or they're just more stoic and they just don't express themselves. Non-verbally as much. And that's okay. That's all right. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: The cliche years ago always started off with a joke. And then the cliche for the last 10 years was never start off with a joke.

Don't leave that too. Can anybody start off with a joke anymore? 

David Weinandy, PhD: It hasn't changed in terms of what I believe. I said, the only time that you use humor is if it is a part of your personality, of course, the humor has to be in good taste as humor should be. Nevermind then. Yeah, I know. But you know, if you're starting something new and you say I'm not the kind of guy who tells jokes or whatever, this is not the time to start something new and risks.

Uh, because jokes are risky. What if no one laughs no, you know, whatever, but if it's, if humor is a part, most of the humor that I use is in the stories I tell and they're stories about me and, and I will often say, you know what? I'm not proud. I am not proud that I did this, but I want them to see that if I'm giving a bad example of something that somebody did in terms of communication, it's like, okay, this is something I did one time, because guess what?

We're emotional human beings who aren't always logical kind of a 

Mike Koelzer, Host: self-deprecating humor or a story of some sort. Yeah. 

David Weinandy, PhD: But that also has a moral to the story and that it's not going to be so. Tearing me apart that it's going to decrease my own credibility. I would never 

Mike Koelzer, Host: do that. Um, unless the speeches rags to riches or bad to good or something like that, but just a general story that takes you away.

It's like the audience doesn't have to deal with that at that point. 

David Weinandy, PhD: No, no, no. Or they don't need to think that's the guy you are. And you're up here teaching us. If I heard a pharmacist, you know, it's not like for example, that pharmacists don't have addiction so that pharmacists don't have whatever they're human beings, but I probably don't want to hear that you have an active addiction at the time and you're still my pharmacist or that there's like, well, aren't there governing bodies that should be doing something about this or whatever, but, but it does make you in some cases, much more relatable and much more human to me and say, oh wow.

It's not just you preaching at me. You would get some of the things. So the struggles that I've had. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You know, we talked about people getting up and almost subconsciously like attacking their own talk by saying I'm not prepared and things like that. Are there any other conscious or more likely subconscious things that a speaker's going to do that is like bombarding themselves from the start?

David Weinandy, PhD: You know, probably the classic one that most of us think of are technically called things like vocal interferences. But, um, um, um, but it's not just some, well, like, you know, any of those filler words that most of us quite frankly, do not hear ourselves. We don't hear ourselves saying them. When I work with people who have a lot of vocal interference, I will make them aware while they're doing it because that's the first stage.

And it's a molding process. It's not that I just say, you just say I'm a lot. Oh, I do. Okay. Well then I won't anymore. It's not that easy. It's a molding process, but we can do that. It's subconscious. Well, and that's the beauty of videotaping and the whole. Uh, videotaping is when you hear it. Ignorance is not good in this case because then people, and I think we've all been in this situation, they start to count your ums and they start to focus on the answer.

We don't listen as well. When there are vocal interferences, dead air is a pause is better than filling it with. Um, or now the new one is, and it's not even like, sometimes people get sing-songy voices as well, or they do the up speak and they start, but it's, it's when they start to do the right, right.

They will say something. Right, right. And it's like, it's like this assumed agreement that we have. And I, and I have some people who I listened to who will sometimes too. Right, right. They'll say something. And then it's like, right. And I'm like, no, not right. What the hell are you writing about? No, I don't agree with you at all.

Stop that, but that's almost become their. And it's this trigger word. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You probably see patterns through every four or five years of California drop-off and the up speak and all these different things. You probably see you had the vocal fry. You probably see a pattern of those every half, dozen years.

David Weinandy, PhD: Yeah. But that's one thing that I would say to you, ignorance is not bliss. Not knowing that you do these things, doesn't make it. Okay. And there are things we can do about them that we can mold [01:20:00] that type of behavior. And all of us have things that are sometimes called unconscious incompetencies.

We're not aware that what we do does not enhance our speech. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: When you're talking about filming, we're not talking here about you're giving a public speech and you're filming it. And then learning from that, you could do that. But nowadays with your phone, you prop it up against your printer. You stand up in your office, you pretend like there's an audience there.

You give your speech and then you do the same things. You did. You turn the sound off, you look at your arms, flailing around or not. You listen to it, then you put it together. That's just from your phone. You can do that in front of nobody. 

Right? 

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, every time before I start a zoom presentation, I will set up a fake zoom meeting and I will.

Practice with a fake zoom meeting, looking at myself, saying, wait a minute, you're getting a horrible glare in your glasses right now, or whatever's happening or you're you don't sound right. How can you say that again this way? And sometimes I will actually hit record on my fake zoom meeting where I'm the only one there, but it's exactly the same thing.

You're right. There's so much technology available to us now that recording ourselves is easy. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: And especially when you don't think it's needed, when it's, uh, you know, a minute introduction or an acceptance thing or something like that, it's like, turn your camera on. If you're gonna, if you know you're gonna be doing it the next day, would you 

David Weinandy, PhD: want to hear you?

That's the key. Now everyone wants to hear you. What things do 

Mike Koelzer, Host: you. Can't believe I was put in this position or does that person know this is affecting me? Or is there anything perfect when you're 

David Weinandy, PhD: there now? Hardly perfect. I would say, but, but it's okay because it's human and things are going to happen, I guess, with zoom there's the, or whatever technology we're using, webcasting, whatever.

There's always the technology issues that can happen. So, but it's, it's like, all right, can we fix them or can we not and go on? Or I always tell people if. Presenting live or if I'm presenting live and I'm doing, or I should say face-to-face and I'm doing PowerPoint. If technology does not work wherever I happen to be, you should always be prepared to do the presentation with, or without the PowerPoint presentation.

And you, we don't spend 10 minutes. Somebody is trying to fix it. They're calling it. They're doing whatever. It's like, no, just go on without it. And by the way, while you're presenting you, don't say things like if you could've seen my slides, well, I can't. Okay. So shut up. I can't see your slides. So stuff that, you know, two things I can think of off the top of my head, that, that bother me, I suppose, as a speaker one is if.

And there would be no reason for people to know this, but I have been made promises that are not fulfilled, but I don't know it till I hit the stage that either I've been promised certain technology or I've been promised a certain seating arrangement, or I've been promised sound equipment or whatever that is not there.

And I didn't, there would be no reason that I would know it or one time I was getting ready for a presentation, talking to the person who had booked me, putting out my little handouts, doing everything the person introduced to me. And it was not the topic that I was prepared for. And the person watched me give out these handouts that had the topic on it.

We had talked and I said, Is that the out, is that the topic I'm speaking on? I thought it was speaking about this and I didn't know what else to say. And she just looked and said, yes. That's yes, I'm correct. That's the topic. And so I thought to myself, all right, collect up these handouts and you better go a little boy because you have two hours now that you're speaking and you don't have any notes, you don't have anything, you know, and I spoken that topic before, but that doesn't matter because when, when all of a sudden you're hit with that, it's like all of a sudden, I couldn't even remember my name momentarily.

And I'm like, all right. Um, and I, I thought, okay, just, just calm down for a second. And you know, okay, well then let's talk about this topic. And I started to preview it. And then I did put them in some groups and I would have done this exercise anyhow, but that gave me a few minutes to jot down a few things.

And I thought. Can I speak about this for two hours and it, yeah, I can, you know, or what time I was speaking at the arena in our town. Um, and, uh, it was speaking to a group of middle schoolers, which are not my [01:25:00] easiest, um, group to speak to. And all of a sudden the hockey team, um, the Griffin sexually, uh, came out to practice while I was speaking.

And I thought, okay, Partially it was doing this for the Griffin. So I was like, okay. And they just thought it was kind of funny, but they didn't leave. And then I'm trying to still speak to the arena with these Griffons who are like slapping this puck around. And I can also hear the coach screaming through his head headset, getting these people off the ice and everything.

And I'm like, stay concentrated, stay concentrated. So that, that was kind of a, but you know, it's just life and things go wrong. Now, if it's the other perspective, what bugs me about an audience is when audience members and this spoke to me in general about people. So it's not just that, um, when they start pulling out their phones and they start texting, they start taking calls in and taking, getting up with the call.

And I understand emergencies. I understand that. Totally. What I don't know. I understand even interpersonally is when somebody will pick up their phone while I'm talking to them. It's like, no, even 

Mike Koelzer, Host: to 

David Weinandy, PhD: text or something. Yes. It's like, we don't know you don't, there's no reason to do that when you picked up a phone and all of a sudden it's in between the two of us and I'm just like, oh, it's really quick.

It's really quick. I mean, we see people do this all the time at dinner, you know, I'd go to a restaurant. You say, well, texting, what you've now done is you've stuck another person in between the two of us. And for. Just as a human being and what I teach people. Right. That's, it's very rude and disconfirming.

And so I make sure that when I'm in an audience, my phone is not with me. Unless again, I mean, there have been situations where somebody is in surgery, quite frankly. And I, I just wanted to know, but sometimes I will, even if it's appropriate, I will go up to the speaker and say, I just want you to know I'm having my phone sitting here, but it's because I won't be calling, but I just need to know that.

But that's happened once in my life, you know, where, where somebody has done that. So, but it's just the norm seems to be it's okay. It's okay to pick up your phone or start texting or start doing whatever. And I'm like, really? No, no, no, no, no, no. Now when I'm, and I'm usually training about how to be a good interpersonal communicator.

And it's like, well, if that's not it, and I get it, when I see people's phones go off and they're like, they get this horrified look and it's like, they're looking for it and they can't turn it off. And I'm like, it's okay. Or like, let me answer. Or, you know, I'll just work it in some way or whatever. And I'm like, it's fine.

Just turn it off. It's fine. Because they look at me like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm like, it's no big deal. It's more, the person who just constantly is texting throughout and I'm like, Mmm boy, I wouldn't want you as a romantic partner. I wouldn't want you as a friend, if you did that to me. And as an employee, the only time I really see it in a customer service orientation is I don't see people usually on the floor if you will, if they're out helping me, but I will see them sometimes.

Counter I go to, or by their register or whatever, they'll have their phone there and they will be looking at it when, like they're not responding to the texts for looking at the texts while they're helping me while they're just saying, would you like to, do you have any questions that for the pharmacist?

And I'm like, we both know that right now, you're looking at that. And it's like, it's okay. But it's kind of like when you're texting, when you have your phone with you, when you drive, it's tempting to want to look at the texts that are coming through, especially when they come through your car. And it says like on the radio, like, okay, there, you got a text, you know, and I just stick it in my briefcase, in the back seat where I can't reach it.

And it's like, no, there's no temptation there. And so it's like, it shouldn't even, it shouldn't even be out, but we're humans and we make mistakes and whatever life goes on, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: if you've got a group of people on your staff and you need one of them to. Give a little talk or a little introduction or something like that.

Is there any way to tell who might have the skill of this? Let's say you have 20 people on your staff and you need one of them. It's not going to be you for some reason. You'd be one of them to stand up and give an introduction for somebody. Are there any skills that maybe you haven't seen them speak in front of people, but there's maybe a carry over and you think that person might be good for this.

Are there any hints of that that you would know? Or could someone just be great in a group and you think they're good, but they would just suck in front of a dozen people for that can always 

David Weinandy, PhD: [01:30:00] happened. You don't really know that that can always happen. There's some people who can't drive on a highway, but they can drive well on a side street.

But, but I guess I would look to, first of all, who interpersonally do you want to listen to? Who is engaging on your staff? Whether it's at a meeting or just when they're talking and there's almost like a sparkle that comes across. I also quite frankly, It depends on the situation. Of course, but I just went to a graduation where it was a small private school, very specialized.

And they asked the students, do any of you want to be the speaker? Like, do any of you want to speak? And four of them volunteered. I would not force. Even if I thought, well, number five, you would be great. You would have been great. You would have been great. If somebody tells me they don't want to, I'm not going to probably put them in a situation.

Um, if I would ask if people are motivated to do it, I think it's also to some extent, topic driven, I would say, you know, who hears best to speak about it? Or D who connects best with them. Some people who connect best with high school students. There are some people who connect best with, um, professionals or other demographics or seniors or whatever.

And it's like, I, I guess I would say who, who feel, because I might feel very comfortable speaking to one demographic about a topic, but not another one. They just intimidate me. I would respect that and not just tell them, oh, you'll be fine. Oh, you'll be fine. Oh, you'll be fine. It's like stop saying that because I don't feel fine.

Mike Koelzer, Host: They might have speaking skills. But what you were saying the whole time here is they've got to believe in their subject and believe in this and that. And so you can take a good speaker, give them a terrible topic he might get by, but he might not convince many people that his heart's in it. 

David Weinandy, PhD: Right. Or just have the depth of knowledge.

Mike Koelzer, Host: If you had to fire somebody up about public speaking and let's say it wasn't a prerequisite, they had to take it in their class or something like that. But we are now graduated. Want to take some adult verses or something like that in public speaking. What is the highest calling of a public speaker that you would go to?

Would you just tell somebody, Hey, you better learn how to public speak in case you have to give a best man speech. Is that the highest calling or do you put a higher calling on public speaking? And if it is, how high does that go to the people that you're teaching? 

David Weinandy, PhD: Well, I think first of all, you can use these skills everywhere.

Whether again, it's one-on-one or it's that I think also it's symbolic for some people they think. I can't do this. I hear that all the time. I'm that good at this? I'm not good at this. And I'm like, well, let's see. And I can find positive things that everybody does. And I'm like, you don't even see this.

You don't see that you inherently are so sincere and non-threatening and trustworthy. And it's like, okay, we're going to use that. I don't want you to change it because this is a gift that you have. We all have gifts and this is your gift or one of your gifts. And we're going to augment it with these other things.

But so often the self-talk has been so destructive, no, I'm not good. Or I had this one bad incident and dah, dah, dah, dah, and it just sticks with me. And so I'm just reinforced with myself that I'm horrible at this. And they think the bigger issue for me is because I'm not the guy who. Doing this by any means I could do it, but I hated it as a matter of fact.

And, when I started to say, wait, I can do this and I'm pretty good at this. This is a skill I have, it taught me that this is probably symbolic for life. There's other things I can do too, where I had put myself into a psychic prison and told myself, Nope, Nope, I can't do this. I can't do that. And so every single person that I've worked with who's gotten better and they always do.

They're always like, I'm like, wait a minute, you could do this. You know, they're going to do it like other people you're going to do it. Like you, they also start doing other things better too, because it teaches them on a grander level. It's like, well, wait, if I can do this, I can probably do this, this and that.

And it boosts self-confidence beyond just the speaking thing, their identity 

Mike Koelzer, Host: changes. When you think about the people that talk about fears in life, I can see what you're saying, that this is the symbolic walking across the coals or something where once they've done this, it's symbolic on their bigger life of I can do this 

David Weinandy, PhD: and you know what, maybe it's also just, you know, as, as, at least as I get older, I put life back in perspective and even the worst case scenario of what can happen if I put it in perspective.

And I say, okay, look [01:35:00] at the people who are at the children's hospital right now, who are facing real issues or, or if I'm old, I've had real issues happen to me as well. And it's like, you know what? I'll survive. It will all be okay. It went really well. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: All right, David, I appreciate your time. Very interesting.

Thank you.