Insurance Agencies in Pharmacies | Ben and Matt Coakley, Waypoint Rx

Transcript Disclaimer: This transcript is generated using speech-to-text technology and may contain errors or inaccuracies.

Mike Koelzer, Host: [00:00:00] Better than Matt. For those that haven't come across you online, introduce yourself and tell our listeners what we're talking about today. 

Ben Coakley: Matt, I'll introduce you if you don't mind. Matt Coakley and Ben Coakley. And, uh, we're two brothers. We have prided ourselves on trying to help pharmacy owners, and independent pharmacies fulfilled their purpose and their mission.

We have launched a new solution called the pharmacy of tomorrow. Ben. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You are a marketing guy from Clemson, Matt, you are a finance and accounting guy from Clemson. Did you guys scheme that way back when to say, let's do this and then we're gonna go to college and then we're gonna end up as a partnership.

How did the whole Waypoint form? 

Ben Coakley: My dad, he just, wasn't an insurance salesman. When he talked about what he did, he never actually talked about it. I sell insurance, he'd say I go out and I serve people. I find out what they want and I help 'em get it. And so. When Matt and I were starting the thought process to chart our path, our future, he just said, Hey, here's 

Matt Coakley: an option.

VI was really the instrumental one in, in pivoting us specifically toward, towards pharmacy. So part of his marketing background said, we need to write a business plan and really get focused on what we're doing. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: How do you guys actually make money at the end of this? And we know it's keeping pharmacy successful.

Right. And we know that if they're successful, you're successful, but what does your success look like? 

Ben Coakley: We are a wealth management, financial services company. So we make money when people use our wealth management solutions. There's a little bit of a nuance to the new thing that we're talking about here.

Uh, and I'll be glad to explain that after we tell people what the idea is, but what's really interesting about our model and I really believe we've invented a new way to do financial services. The financial service P services piece pays us all of the coaching, the pharmacy of tomorrow, all this wonderful intellectual property that we.

You get it just by doing the wealth management stuff with us. I tell people we're not asking you to spend any more money. So we go to a pharmacy owner and we're like, Hey, you can get access to all this. And I'm gonna show you how I can do your 401k better than what you have now. So you're gonna get a better solution and you're gonna get all this coaching and all these new ideas.

And, you know, we do mastermind solutions where we, where we get pharmacy owners together and they collaborate on new ideas. I mean, we're really big into trying to advance this. It's a long 

Mike Koelzer, Host: time commitment to raise the value of the pharmacy and the earning value, which then end up helping you. We're talking 

Ben Coakley: about the pharmacy of tomorrow program, which is about the business model, but what's interesting.

The pharmacy owner of today is necessarily programmed to create the pharmacy of tomorrow. So think about this. So it's like a square, peg round hole. We have a program called the purpose of capital. And it's a coaching program designed to create leaders, community based leaders from pharmacists and pharmacy owners.

And, and there's three sources of capital that we've identified that every pharmacy owner and community pharmacy has, that's people, capital, community capital and financial capital. You think about the PBM game. They want us only focused on financial capital mm-hmm . What happens is if we're only focused on financial care, number one, we don't look any different than the CVS Rite aid Walgreens down the street.

Right? We don't, we don't, and they've got more money than we do so they can just outlast us. Unfortunately, what makes pharmacies unique? Independent pharmacies are their relationship with the people in their town and the relationship with that community. So our belief is that we have to focus on relationships.

And the community and then find ways to meet the needs of that community through a new model, which is the pharmacy of 

Matt Coakley: tomorrow. Spin it back to answer your question a little bit on how it makes sense for us. So of course we, we have, we have some, some, uh, altruistic reasons why we wanna see this happen, but.

Our pharmacies become profitable. Uh, they have more money that they can invest long term with us. Um, maybe, maybe they need some of the other programs that we have as well. Uh, but we, we, I think that's one of many things that differentiates us from a lot of financial guys is a lot of financial people will take interest in your investments because if they grow them, they make more money.

We do that as well. And we can show people why we think we do it the best in the world, but we also take interest in their business because we want to help them in their business, help more people in their town, which will in turn, spin off more money, that they can invest with us, um, [00:05:00] as a secondary reason.

But that's where the finance piece comes in. Pharmacy of tomorrow, the pharmacy of tomorrow. I think what really got it in, in my head of starting 10 years and working backwards, it goes back to the conference that we went to in March. They have a couple speakers there. Uh, a lady named Treya Clauson runs a company called design house.

Cooperative. I think her design house is a collaborative collective collective. There you go. Uh, she's Canadian. She's a business coach in a sense, but that's her methodology of thinking instead of saying, where do I wanna be in 2030 and setting out a linear plan of what I need to do in 2021?

What do I need to do in 20, 23, 20, 25? And so on, she goes through the exercise of let's put ourselves in 2030 and say, I'm mentally in 2030. What does everything look like? And then. Work it backwards to get there. So it's a pretty neat exercise to do. And then she brought somebody on stage that she'd actually done that with.

And it was a fellow named Chip Wilson who, if you haven't heard of him, started Lululemon. And, uh, essentially that was how. The same thought process. He went to build that into a 25 billion company that it is now. So you start hearing people like that. Talk about thinking, planning your future from the future.

And it makes a 

Ben Coakley: lot of 

Mike Koelzer, Host: sense. Is that the flowered pants 

Ben Coakley: place 

Matt Coakley: that make 

Ben Coakley: yoga 

Mike Koelzer, Host: pants? Come on now, you guys, I'm gonna call you out on that one. This guy got up there and said, I'm gonna look into the future 10 years from now. And the answer for 10 years for now is flowered pants. Oh, wait. They're not the flowered ones.

That's Lulu something 

Ben Coakley: else. No, no. You're talking about Lulu, Lulu Ray or whatever. Lulu, Lulu Roe, Lulu Roe, Lulu 

Matt Coakley: Roe. So Lularoe I think is called Lulu Roe, cuz it's a play on the name. Lulu Liman. So Lulu Liman started again, gonna get me on dates in the late nineties in Canada. And uh, so chip Wilson, not to go too far down this rabbit hole, but he, uh, revolutionized.

Workout gear, they call it leisure athletics, or he basically invented yoga pants. 

Ben Coakley: I'll give you 

Mike Koelzer, Host: that. He was the workout pants guy. I just didn't see the whole flower stuff of Lulu Roe 

Ben Coakley: stuff. Imagine you, you get up there and you're trying to create a, a, a future from the future. This concept actually was originated by a gentleman named Steve Zaffron, uh, who owns the van to group and they do consulting for.

Um, and one of the, probably top 10 consulting firms in the country, in the world. And, uh, and he wrote a book called the three laws of performance, which we're actually getting ready to start for our book club. And he's the one that actually created the concept, creating the future from the future. And so you can imagine Chip Wilson who wanted to raise the standards of every individual, um, in, in the world now, how does yoga pants have anything to do with it?

Well, if, from what I understand is that fed through the entire organization to where even the clerks, I mean were just phenomenal. I mean, we could learn from that, you know, we could learn from having this purpose, whatever the purpose is. and how to have that filter through the organization to create this powerful vision for the future.

And, and that's what's happened in our business is we, we're just extremely clear on what this purpose is and what the vision is, what we actually have a 20, 30 future ourselves, what our company's gonna look like in 2030. And we created it from the future, a Pharmac. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: wakes up 10 years later, 20 30, 20 31. And they walk into their business.

They haven't been there in 10 years. What's gonna throw them the most? 

Ben Coakley: Um, I would say it's , it's not gonna be focused around putting the pills from the big bottle, into the little bottle. Uh, I would say that it's gonna be a true service. Based model where pharmacy owners are truly focused on patient relationship management.

Not pharmacy prescription or medication therapy management, um, finding out the needs of the actual community and, and, and meeting those needs. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You said not medication management. 

Ben Coakley: I 'll be a part of it. That means, listen, it's a pharmacy at the core. You told me 

Mike Koelzer, Host: what, it's not. So there's no pill bottles sitting around.

I would 

Ben Coakley: say there still are pill bottles. You're still gonna dispense, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: not a transfer. There may be packages sized and all that stuff already. 

Matt Coakley: Well, so the idea is we have to have divers. Revenue sources that don't all run through 

Ben Coakley: the PBM. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Understood. But the question is they walk in the door of the pharmacy.

What's gonna floor them? [00:10:00] What are they gonna be thinking when they walk in there, what's gonna be like, whoa, I 

Ben Coakley: think what they're gonna be thinking is. Never in my wildest dreams. Did I ever think I could create what I'm looking at? What are they looking at though? I think they're looking at a suite of offices with professional people in there.

I don't know, like they're gonna be in suit and ties, uh, or anything like that, but I think they're looking at insurance. See, they're looking at a home healthcare agency. They're looking at a hospice company. They're looking at a home remodeling business. They're looking at a nurse practitioner who can actually see patients.

Mike Koelzer, Host: This is what you were talking about, about they're gonna get into the community. Okay. So I'm, I'm following y'all. So, they're gonna have these professionals in. 

Ben Coakley: Yeah, absolutely. Our, our 

Matt Coakley: vision of the 20, 30, uh, pharmacy or the pharmacy of tomorrow is that it is a center of commerce and a center of healthcare commerce for, for the entire community.

Oh, it doesn't replace the actual business of pharmacy. I practice a pharmacy, but there's a lot more to it than just dispensing medications 

Ben Coakley: devil's 

Mike Koelzer, Host: advocate. So we've got this building and let's say it's, you know, 5,000 square feet. And every little office has, you know, a few hundred square feet or something like that.

So let's say there's eight differences. Office things in there. Why does the pharmacist have the audacity to say, I'm going to run this and this whole thing is gonna be called a pharmacy, or do I have that wrong or is just one of the offices called a quote pharmacy? And the other eight are part of this neighborhood service centered.

So to speak community 

Ben Coakley: health, hub, community health hub, community hub. I mean, it's a community hub. I mean, that's what it is. So it's 

Mike Koelzer, Host: not a pharmacy they're walking in. Do they're walking into a hub, 

Ben Coakley: they're walking out to a hub. Yes, sir. Came 

Matt Coakley: up with this a long time ago, but the number one problem that businesses have to solve is you have to get customers.

You have to find somebody in which you can sell something to, or you can bring a product or a program that's gonna improve their lives in some way, get them to pay you. Well, most of our pharmacy clients, now, some of them are startups or whatever that are trying to solve. That dilemma still exists, but most of the pharmacies out there already have problems.

Number one, solved. They've got people walking in, in the door every day, large numbers 

Mike Koelzer, Host: of 'em. This is gonna have some basis in that the number of people coming in to a pharmacy 

Matt Coakley: area. Absolutely. So then we can take step two and say, okay, we've got the people coming in. Um, how can we get something into their hands that both benefits.

And pays us what we're worth. Uh, so I'm a, I'm a big, big fan of, of capitalism. Uh, as we probably all are, if we're in business for ourselves, but, and capitalism, it's gotta be a transaction that makes sense to both parties or we're not gonna do the transaction. So if I'm selling something to bin and, and it doesn't make sense to Ben, he's not gonna buy it.

If I can't sell it and make money, I'm not gonna sell it. Well, pharmacy has gotten into a position where there's so much of it, that our pharmacy owners are selling that they're not making any money. So we have to, we have to change that 

Ben Coakley: narrative. And I would add that it doesn't only add value to the person buying and the person selling.

It keeps dollars in these local communities, Mike and that's. And that's a huge thing. These online retailers and, and, and you're seeing this mass Exodus PBMs are stripping communities. All 

Mike Koelzer, Host: right, you're calling this, the pharmacy of the future now. I'm gonna call this a pharmacy of the past. And here's why, all right now, bear with me, pharmacies are way back when they started off as medicine things, you know, the guy would make their pills mm-hmm and things like that.

And then across the country, the profit margin went down mm-hmm . And so they start bringing in things like balloons and toys and hallmark and post offices and, you know, Western Union and all this kind of stuff. Now in the year 2020 people say, okay, Pharmacy should just be pharmacy should just be healthy.

Let's get rid of the balloons and the toys and the gifts and that, you know, some people, but now you guys are saying that the pharmacy of 2030, that's looking to me like the pharmacy of 1970, where am 

Ben Coakley: I'm off on that? Ah, that's, that's a great point. You know, the pharmacy in 1970, didn't have the data that we have today, Mike, and that's really important.

That's interesting. Yeah, we can actually evaluate. Uh, profitability of these services. So we can actually say home healthcare, for example, okay. There are pharmacies right now who have home healthcare agencies. Well, we believe that that is a legit thing that we can add. You've got an aging population who want to stay in their [00:15:00] home and aging home.

Well, they're gonna need services. The average caregiver, I think we learned, is 281 miles away, family caregiver. So more than likely they're gonna be paying somebody to help. Well, we looked at the numbers. The average is about 26% net profit margin for that business. It's a little higher than the two or 3% we're seeing for independent pharmacies these days, by the way, just FYI.

Yeah. So we can look at the things, the pharmacy insurance group, you're talking 40%. 40% in net margins in this business, people 

Mike Koelzer, Host: that need their blue cross or whatever that margin is 40% for whom for the 

Ben Coakley: owner of the agency. So which will be the pharmacy owner? Gotcha. And we don't take any of that. This is what's really cool about the model.

We don't take any of that. We don't charge a fee to set 'em up and we don't take any of that. We actually get paid from the carrier to build agencies. So the more business that they do, the carriers actually pay us per a small percentage. This. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Is finally 

Ben Coakley: right? Mm-hmm absolutely. Yeah. Ben 

Mike Koelzer, Host: and Matt, you've been very patient with our questioning here, but mm-hmm we finally hit the, this where part of this pharmacy with, let's say, aid offices in it, or something like that.

One of them is healthcare. You guys would be paid to help set up the agency itself. And then the pharmacy would be, or mm-hmm someone in the pharmacy, a guy or a gal, you know, running. This would be the agent that is making the agent's. On this, there may 

Ben Coakley: was called street level commissions, and this is silly and I'll explain the silliness of it in a second, but we started it because pharmacy owners started calling us last year.

Well last say two or three years and they're, and they're very concerned that they're not gonna be able to stay in the Medicare space. Mm. Um, because, you know, we've got one client who's losing 30,000 a month on their Medicare business. Hmm. And you know, you $360,000 a year, that's, that's just, at some point you can't sell enough DME or walkers or, you know, stools for seats for your shower to offset $360,000.

Just can't. You can't make that 

Mike Koelzer, Host: up selling bath stools. 

Ben Coakley: Yeah. No, you're not. You aren't gonna make it up. You ain't gotta sell a lot of canes. You gotta sell a lot of canes and walkers for that in wheelchairs, you know? So it started there. We like, it's a crazy story, how it all came together, but we met a Medicare agent and he said, man, he said, I didn't know this word for word.

He said, I didn't realize how much harm I was causing independent pharmacies by pushing Medicare. I know that they're getting great service when they go into Tolsons, our local pharmacy here in town. but Cameron shows me the reimbursement and the DIR fees. Yeah. And he said, I didn't, I had no idea that I was actually doing this.

Mm-hmm I had no idea I was hurting these people. And, uh, so he said, I want you to get Cameron licensed and let him get the commissions. Cuz now you go from something that's not profitable to profit. And you can continue to serve Medicare patients and listen, they're already doing this anyways. Pharmacy owners, for the most part, using some of the software available in today's world are already helping patients choose Medicare part D plans.

So why not just get paid for it? Why not make some money? You gotta jump some hurdles and, and get some stuff done up front in order to be able to do this. But this is the silly part. Bring it back around. A Medicare agent can work with a patient for one hour and make 540 bucks commission. And you any owner out there who takes that Medicare patient is gonna see them?

What? 20, 30 times over the next year. Yeah. Right. And lose money every single time. You see 'em it's ludicrous. the model at this point. Go ahead. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I had one flak that started Medicare. Yeah. He was on a couple weeks ago. And when Medicare came out. I was always under the impression that pharmacists legally could not recommend an insurance mm-hmm

And then secondly, I told flak that I, Medicare was like, deciding what bullet I wanted to have, shoot me, you know? It's like, yeah. I thought they were all Stu so it's like, I'm not gonna recommend any of them, even if I could. Yeah. I don't think I legally can, even if I could, I wouldn't wanna do it. How does this get around that?

Is that a. 

Ben Coakley: Believe it or not we've not found any rules in any states that says you can't do it, but in order to make sure that we're maintaining the highest ethical standards, we're still gonna recommend you give the information and we train. We train the agents, whether it's the owner or whether it's agents who work for the owner, we train them to give that patient the [00:20:00] information, and then you let them choose.

There's no conflict of interest. There's no steering and it's definitely not illegal. I think the PBMs have been successful and really scaring us in, in some ways, Mike, uh, because they sit there and tell us we can't do it, but then they put their captive agents in Walgreens, right. Are in Humana and do the same thing.

They tell us we can't do it. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You're seeing that in chain pharmacies, they're having their agents there 

Ben Coakley: they're captive agents, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: but they say it's probably not in the pharmacy or something like that. 

Ben Coakley: Right. So we've learned 15 feet. They're outside the pharmacy. Well, you gotta be 15 feet. I think you don't wanna have this conversation behind the pharmacy county.

You wanna be 15 feet out in front of it. So the same thing that they scare us. From doing, they're doing themselves. So if it really was illegal, if it really was steering, if Medicare wanted money and they found out and they thought Walmart was steering ages to Humana, that's a captive Humana age agent.

You could only choose Humana. That is the classic definition of steering. If there is one, they would hammer 'em, they'd find 'em because Walmarts can write big checks, you know, but, but don't, you don't ever hear about it. We feel it's absolutely the best thing for a patient to see you. An independent pharmacy and have a conversation about their insurance.

That's way better than going to Walmart. That's way better than going to an outside agent who doesn't know, who doesn't know, or, or even worse, couldn't care less about your pharmacy and is gonna sell them the highest commission product 

Mike Koelzer, Host: in your vision of this. Would this room then be staffed? An agent, not by the pharmacist and the pharmacist wouldn't really even mosey in there kind of thing.

It's like a separate what 

Ben Coakley: room? Yeah, I think that a separate area of the pharmacy or a separate room. Absolutely. Listen, when you look at the profitability of insurance agencies, There's a reason insurance agencies get sold for three to four times gross revenue, not three to four times EBITDA by the way.

Okay. Because they're extremely profitable. Yeah. The value of a human being they're, they're more valuable as a full-time insurance agent. Then they are as, maybe as a tech, who's doubling as an insurance agent. So yeah, I think 

Matt Coakley: That's the route that most of our people that have hopped on board with the pharmacy insurance agency is that they're turning it over to somebody else.

Sometimes it's a spouse. Sometimes it's a child, some of them will use a technician and then some of 'em are just finding. Another health insurance agent to, to bring in, to run this portion of it. Because the pharmacy owner also owns the agency. They're able to, uh, participate in some of the revenue on the back end, even though they're not actually doing the recommendation of the insurance product, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: the pharmacy owner owns the 

Ben Coakley: agency.

Yeah. And so that's the clear winner in this whole thing. Most people are doing that now. So you don't have to dive in, you know, head first, you know, you can get yourself licensed in a tech and then work, you know, go through annual enrollment this year and, and learn the kinks of it and how it works.

And then, and then start to bring on full time agents. But you've got, we've got guys and, and ladies now who are. Big with this who we are, I got a C call from a gentleman in Arkansas and he said, I want the entire state of Arkansas. I wanna put my agents in every single independent in Arkansas. Look at what they sell for in the Val in the, in the profitability.

Mike Koelzer, Host: This guy that's saying that is the owner with agents, but you're talking about the pharmacy being the. Owner. So how did those two jive, 

Matt Coakley: uh, we told the gentleman that probably weren't set up for that kind of deal. But he was looking, he is a pharmacy owner and a multiple pharmacy owner. He wanted to put agents in his stores and then said, Hey, if there's any other person in Arkansas that doesn't wanna do it, then I'll take it.

Oh, he was 

Mike Koelzer, Host: a pharmacy owner. He was saying he'd like to put his agents as a pharmacy owner in other pharmacies. 

Ben Coakley: Yeah. You know, with, with a, with a non-compete Sam, I'm not gonna compete for your pharmacy business, but now I'm. But I'm gonna put your people in good plans for you. Oh. And by the way, I'll pay you rent and I'll, you know, there's some money you can make from this.

And yeah. So I, I think I, the whole point is, if you can think really big with this and really create a wonderful business that is marketable. It has value and it diversifies what you're doing. Uh, and, and, and then ultimately keeps independent, uh, keeps these patients in their independent pharmacies.

Which is again, what we feel is way better for the, uh, for the community. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: This is the pharmacy of 2030. Are there any pharmacies of 2021 that have gone nine years early and have done this? Yes, 

Ben Coakley: absolutely. We have, I think we have 75 agencies onboarding right now, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: 75 pharmacies that are becoming agencies 

Ben Coakley: 75.

Who is in the process? 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I know like, oh, real estate, you have to work under someone for a year, this or that. Do they have the same thing with insurance? They 

Ben Coakley: have to have, what's called a general agency, which is what we [00:25:00] are. I gotcha. The idea is to unite pharmacies in these insurance agencies under one banner, which is the pharmacy insurance groups.

I gotcha. And to, and to create a really powerful brand. Gotcha. That will be recognizable. No matter where anybody goes. And if you, if you think of it like the state farm model. Okay. It's like that. So you'll have, so somebody has a licensed pharmacy insurance group agency. And, um, so that's the vision. Um, and for, and for that, like I said, As a general agent, we get paid a little bit of money.

It's a very small percentage, hopefully off a big pot, but a very small percentage. Um, but that comes directly from the carrier. So there's no, you know, when we talk, there's like, people are really surprised to learn that. There's no fee for us to help that three to 5% that we get paid, which is what it is.

And we're completely transparent with every single one of the people we talk to. Um, it's enough for us to invest in, in some training and some technology and things like that. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: These agencies or sub agencies, are they actually up and running now somewhere we have four 

Ben Coakley: up and running. Nice. Mm-hmm it takes six to eight weeks to get from.

Point a to point B. So I 

Matt Coakley: I think that was the. The question, uh, kind of initially in terms of the process of getting set up, but do you have to go through some licensing? That's the one thing with the insurance commissions, they can only pay to a licensed agent. So both the agency owners gotcha.

Who is usually the pharmacy owner and the agent will have to be licensed. Then they're gonna have to go through some specific Medicare training, uh, which a pharmacist is going to blow through because it's, it's fairly simple if you understand Medicare. Right. And then, uh, our training process is pretty extensive because.

There are a few things that we need him to do, but, uh, the, the main one is they need to understand all of the programs and they also need to know that the agent represents the patient, not the pharmacy. So we have an agreement that they'll sign that says when I, when I put this hat on, whether I'm the pharmacist or another agent that, um, that I'm helping them.

Patients do what's in the best interest of the patient. Um, which part of that is the same thing. Pharmacists have been doing forever, getting their prescriptions where they get the best healthcare, which we know is at the pharmacy, uh, the independent pharmacy. So they're, they're going through all that process to make sure they understand what we're looking for there.

And, um, and that takes six to eight weeks. Uh, some people will move through it faster. Some people will take a little 

Ben Coakley: bit longer. Assuming 

Mike Koelzer, Host: All the pharmacy reimbursement stinks, they then know that they're still gonna make money. On the recommendation of three plans that maybe stink for pharmacy, but at least you're still gonna 

Ben Coakley: make money on it.

Yeah. I mean that, that's the thought 

Matt Coakley: process. And even if it comes out to where the best plan, um, has them preferred at Walgreens and not at the independence, then the, the, the pharmacy. Owner or insurance agent can say, Hey, look, this Walgreens is gonna be a little bit cheaper for you. If you, if that's your deciding factor, then that patient goes to Walgreens.

Um, but we still make the commission on it by the way. I mean, the pharmacy group still makes the commission, so there's still money there. Um, in general, we, we believe that the, the first thing that the patient in the, in the, in the insurance agent come to the conclusion is that we wanna do what we can to stay in this pharmacy if possible, cuz we all know that an independent pharmacy gives better care than Walgreens or certainly than a mail order.

Um, so that that's gonna be the primary goal, but it, it's not going to work out perfectly for everyone just like it doesn't now 

Ben Coakley: does 

Mike Koelzer, Host: It cost the pharmacies money too. Set this 

Ben Coakley: up. It does. It's very minor. I mean, you're talking a couple thousand bucks. 

Matt Coakley: There's a licensing cost, which is about a hundred dollars for every state that you wanna be licensed in their insurance exam, which is about another hundred dollars.

You got a couple hundred dollars in study materials for it. You need some Eno insurance, that's Arizona O mission, which is in insurance or financial services. That just protects you from, from doing something a little bit off the, the wall, putting your client 

Ben Coakley: in a bad spot. That's 

Mike Koelzer, Host: a fancy word for mistakes, right?

Ben Coakley: That's right. Yeah, that's right. That's the, oops. Oops. I messed up insurance. Yes. So that's 

Matt Coakley: Probably it. We have a, uh, CRM and a pharmacy insurance group email address and a secure VPN to make sure that nobody's getting hacked on their computer. Gotcha. So tho those total. Like been said about 2000 bucks 

Ben Coakley: to get up and running.

Do you guys 

Mike Koelzer, Host: have a formation, like a, uh, training fee, something like that? We do not. Most people doing this well, anybody doing, if they're aware of cost, can point to this couple thousand dollars and say, all right, this was for this. This was for this. Yeah. You guys set it from the very start, that's right.

You're getting paid by the insurance to set up these programs. Yeah. And this money is truly a way to, to get going 

Ben Coakley: pharmacy [00:30:00] owners and, and community pharmacies. They're so used to everything getting marked up on 'em and, and yeah, everybody making money. So because there's this three to 5%, it's called an override that we get paid from the carriers.

We actually called some owners. And we were like, what do you think about this and this and this. And pretty much we're told we're tired of everything getting marked up and us getting not ripped off, but taking advantage of. And so, yeah, we just said, you know what, we're gonna charge everything at cost.

And that's what we do. We charge everything at cost. What's really cool about this model. And I love this. And pharmacy owners are not used to it. They're not used to having a model where the people who are actually delivering it win when they win. It's so foreign of a concept, right? I've had a couple owners say, ah, this can't bitch, you gotta be making money somewhere else.

I'm like, no, if we don't get you off the ground and get you across the finish line and get you making really good money with this, we don't make any money. Yeah. So 

Matt Coakley: There's a couple things there. I think, uh, first off the opportunity is, is it still really good. For us at Waypoint. Um, we anticipate this going really, really well and the, and the dollars will be there.

But the other thing is we want it to be about the dollar staying in the community and Ben and I are fortunate. Uh, the Lord has blessed us to be in a position where we don't need this to turn around and pay us money tomorrow or even six months from now. This is a long term move on our part that if it goes well, which we anticipate it will, it's gonna really help a lot of pharmacy owners.

Um, and long term will be rewarded for the effort that we put in. Now, what's 

Ben Coakley: your 

Mike Koelzer, Host: biggest objection. Do you know whether it's true or not? What do you think of pharmacists' biggest objection to this? Some that you've heard and some that. Thinking that might be in their subconscious or in their conscious, but they're not voicing it.

You talked 

Ben Coakley: About one of 'em it's this belief that we can't do it. That's a big one. Okay, gotcha. When we go through this and we do webinars on this and yeah, we see like the chat field just starts filling off. How, how can you do this? You know, is this illegal? You know, you start getting all those questions and, um, uh, I, I would say that's one, the bigger one though.

It's this perceived lack of time. mm. In our organization, we have worked diligently to eliminate. I don't have time as an excuse. What I would tell pharmacy owners is you do have time. If you make this a priority, you can get it done and you can build a million or 2 million, $3 million asset. That is way more profitable than what you currently are dealing with in an independent retail pharmacy.

But you have to make time for it. 

Matt Coakley: We all have the same amount of time. So when somebody says I don't have time, what they're really saying is I'm not making that high enough priority to actually do. That's like been said, the most focal response is I'm not sure if this is legal. Once we talk through that, especially if somebody that's concerned, if they're interested with the route of starting an agency and having somebody else actually make the recommendations, I think most people come on board with, with, and get comfortable with that.

But then it's a matter. It takes six to eight weeks. An insurance exam is not rocket science. It's not the pharmacy boards, but it's something you have to study for a little bit. You're not just gonna walk into it and, uh, and get, get a 70 or, or it varies by state what's required to pass. So there's a little bit of upfront work, uh, and that's a lot to put on pharmacy pharmacy owners that already have a lot on their plates, but the backend reward we think will be well worth it.

It. What's 

Ben Coakley: amazing is when, when we, when we first got in this, you know, it was to solve this. Challenge that we're facing. When you start thinking about when, when you have the life accident and health license, you can do commercial insurance, you can do individual affordable care act insurance. You can do life insurance, so you can really build.

An insurance agency, a full service insurance agent can't do property and CA I can't do your homeowner. It's an automobile. And, you know, we, we, um, we typically don't recommend that you do that because it's a very high service, low margin business. We're not looking at adding this to the pharmacy of tomorrow, concept this 20, 30 future, you know, if it's not 25 or higher net profit margin, uh, because again, at some point, you know, you're working really hard and, and you wanna see the fruits of that labor.

You know, Mike, think about the opportunity Scott Amos. Who's one of our partners in this, he rattled off how many types of insurance. It was like, it was like 40 different types of insurance that you have patients. And all you have to do. The challenge is to help your patients understand that they can buy it from you.

Now that you can do both. And it's already happening with Medicare. Scott as a 

Matt Coakley: Medicare agent said that he always felt bad for the pharmacy, cuz somebody would come in with a printout of exactly what they need to do. [00:35:00] He said the pharma pharmacy's already done my job for me. All I have to do is literally spend three minutes clicking through a few screens and they're signed up and I get paid for it.

Pharmacy owner or uh, agent in the pharmacy actually picked it out. Didn't so, um, so there's also, there's also been, uh, uh, in. The idea that a lot of our pharmacy clients have health insurance. They have group disability insurance. They might have group life insurance, but all of a sudden they can become the agent on that.

And then they've just gotten reimbursed for their time by getting paid on their 

Ben Coakley: own benefits they can buy from themselves. Yeah. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, you know, pharmacy we've maybe been surpassed by maybe nurses or something and because of some of the gag clauses with the damn PBMs and stuff, but they've always been, you know, the trusted people.

So is there anybody that you don't think would be in the market for this? Are you like, all right, as you're going down your list, it's like, ah, we're not gonna call Caler, he's an old fart that seems stuck in his ways. You know what I mean? Is there anybody that you don't think will be a market for? 

Ben Coakley: I think the 

Matt Coakley: biggest, uh, probably the biggest, um, kind of feedback we've had for people that aren't sure if this makes sense, uh, are people that have a really small.

Medicare population. So we have a client that has a really nice pharmacy, but it's mostly compounding. Doesn't have a lot of foot traffic. He thinks he's got about 200 Medicare patients and we're talking through it. The numbers can still make sense. Uh, but they don't make as much sense as if he had 2000 Medicare patients.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Why Medicare is it because commercials are already done by some bigger firms or. Why just Medicare, it's kind of 

Matt Coakley: the low hanging fruits. Um, that's where I think a lot of people are already making decisions at the pharmacy. We think of that as the easiest entry 

Ben Coakley: point and the vast majority are all enrolled at the same time.

Oh, I gotcha. Okay. So we can line up and get a bunch of patients at one time. So again, that's where the most need is. You have a very vulnerable population, which is our seniors. My grandfather got pushed to Tricare mail lawyer, and it was terrible. Mm-hmm Mike I'm convinced he, I, I, I'm not gonna say he'd be 90.

What? 95 this year. But I'm convinced we'd have got a few more years outta my grandfather if he wouldn't have been pushed a mail order. And that's a long story, you can go to my blog and read it. Uh, I mean, it's really upsetting to me the impact that mail order had, um, on our lives and the fact that they say mail order saves money.

And my grandfather had a stroke because there's blood pressure medicine got messed up. Yeah. And spent. 20 days in ICU and then 20 days in skilled nursing, how much did that cost Tricare? Right. So the Medicare population who needs to go to an independent where they know who they are, they know their history is right now being systematically stripped.

From them and from the pharmacy being able to serve this population, I want 

Matt Coakley: Ben to tell the, the, um, story about our, our friend in Kansas, who is on board. Um, when any detractors say that, I don't know that the pharmacist should be doing this. Uh, this is the story that I like to tell, but Ben tells it much, much 

Ben Coakley: better.

So we have a, we have an owner in her husband is an insurance agent or licensed insurance agent. And, uh, he helped with Medicare enrollments. This. so he was sitting down and they have, they have a pharmacy counter and right at the end they have a desk. So I don't know, I don't think he qualifies for the 15 feet, but you know, it's fine.

Anyway, so he's sitting at the desk, working with this patient, the patient's on a really high, um, really expensive blood thinner Zerto, I believe is what it was. And, um, in Kansas, their. Part D plans either didn't cover it or it had a really high deductible. Yeah. So he actually, I mean, literally just looked over and said, Hey honey, can you check the cash price on Seresto?

Yeah. And they were able to choose a plan, carve out the Serreno for a cash price and save the guy about 1800 bucks a year. Now tell me, there's no way that that's. If we don't merge the insurance piece with the Medicare piece insurance with the care. 

Matt Coakley: Yeah. How's the captive human agent gonna know that how's how, how would I, as an insurance agent know that unless I was having that conversation with the pharmacist or pharmacy owner, 

Ben Coakley: I've 

Mike Koelzer, Host: got this guy, my business at the pharmacy really sharp on all the insurance and stuff like that.

And he tells these customers so much good information about their insurance and I'm thinking. Golly. I can't think of anybody better than if he could do insurance stuff. There'd be a benefit in getting rid of the middle man, because the insurance guy's not gonna understand all the stuff that he would tell him.

It's almost like I'd rather have a medical guy with an insurance license than an insurance guy, knowing some medical stuff. Exactly. I mean, that message just gets [00:40:00] lost with all due respect to you guys. And you look like a couple of upstanding smart guys, but it takes some brains too, to know the whole medical side of things.

Right? Absolutely. As a pharmacist and to know, to know how that goes together. And so I'd rather have a mix. That's the 

Ben Coakley: whole 

Matt Coakley: point behind it. Or not the whole point, 

Ben Coakley: But the initial point, what I would tell you is it's easier to understand the insurance piece than the medical piece. I'm just telling you, Ben, I didn't wanna 

Mike Koelzer, Host: say it.

I didn't wanna come out and say it, but that's what I was getting at. It's like the medical thing is so complicated. I'm not saying insurance isn't complicated, but the medical thing is so damn complicated with all the different stuff going on. It's like, I'd rather my medical guy have an, I. License then have my insurance guy have like some, you know, tech license or something like that, but not be living 

Ben Coakley: it.

Matt Coakley: I said it in a little bit of a different way, but getting an insurance license is not that hard, especially when you compare its sake in the pharmacy boards. So that should, that just, that tells you that there's a different level of education. Just in general. So plenty of, plenty of really smart insurance agents.

And I'm not saying every, every pharmacist is, uh, is the next Einstein, but in general, it it's having the idea that somebody can marry the two components really well makes 

Ben Coakley: sense. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: And let's take education out of it. Let's just put in the real life experience of customers crying. kicked off because they're not getting what they thought they got medicine wise and things like that.

I think there's more real life stuff going on in the pharmacy than the I. Agents ever gonna really hear absolutely they've experienced, but it's in the insurance side of things versus there's probably more people crying in a pharmacy than crying in an insurance agency. Let's put it that way. Sure. I know you mentioned some different things in the pharmacy of the future.

Are there other fields besides insurance that you see you guys playing a role? For the pharmacy of the 

Ben Coakley: future. That's a great question. I mean, Mike, we'll continue to do the, the, the wealth management for the personal and the, and the company, and we'll do the employer benefits, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: But do you see yourself doing any other funnel for the pharmacy customers?

Ben Coakley: I'm really interested in the interface between veterinarians and pharmacies. I'm working, uh, with the American college of APO carries and they've got a veterinary pharmacist kind of little offshoot association. So if you're, if you're really. Stay focused on the community, right? Making the community a better place.

It opens up just a world of avenues. We can go down, 

Matt Coakley: We don't have to have our hands and everything in terms of like we've met with franchise consultants and things like that. 

Ben Coakley: Yeah. The, the internet, the international franchise professional script, we want 

Matt Coakley: pharmacy owners to think differently. That's what really, this is about at the core is if we can change the mentality of the pharmacy owner of today into thinking.

There's so much more I can do than just be a retail pharmacy. Then that opens up so many doors. The pharmacy insurance group is one big piece. Uh, Ben's gonna get a little bit more into the franchise, but there's literally anything that the patient needs in terms of healthcare. Uh, we can run 

Ben Coakley: through the pharmacy.

So mainly 

Mike Koelzer, Host: healthcare will always sort of be at the bottom of this. Right. 

Ben Coakley: Remember when you peel, remember when you peel those layers back, it's still healthcare. I mean, it's still healthcare. The people are gonna still come in. With the idea I'm gonna get my scripts filled. I'm still still a pharmacy, but the idea is to really focus, to do real patient relationship management.

You know, we're calling it triage where you sit down and have an appointment with that patient and say, What are your needs, not just healthcare and you, and you start to have that patient, uh, tell you what he or she needs. And then, Hey, we've got the solutions in house, or we're connected with people who can help you with that and become that hub.

That hub where people know I can go get what I need to be successful at that independent pharmacy Ben with 

Mike Koelzer, Host: that. Then do you think that is mainly gonna be healthy or do you think that other things can play into that? I mean, would you be telling somebody the best place to get their vinyl siding done?

The reason I ask is because that separates it from my early question of back in the 1970s, the 1970s was like, all right, helium balloons, a post office and hallmark cards. How do those go along with the pharmacy? Like home 

Ben Coakley: remodeling and bath remodeling. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, that certainly plays a role with the physically challenged.

Yeah. 

Ben Coakley: Physically challenged and most when you start researching it, most accidents happen in the bathroom. That's right. You know, most seniors fall in the bathroom and, and they wanna stay in their home. Or like, my grandmother has that little wheel, that chair that goes up the stairs. you know, and so installing 

Mike Koelzer, Host: those, and that makes sense.

That's all a health based health infiltrates everything, 

Ben Coakley: But listen, it can be [00:45:00] whatever we want it to be. I have a pharmacy right now and they are considering a Mathnasium or similar type franchise. to do math tutoring in their pharmacy. The concept is the health and wealth of the community. That's really, if you think about health and wealth, right?

Um, we wanna take care of their health, but we also wanna keep more of their wealth in the community. Because it provides economic opportunities. It just, it's just, it's so much better allocated locally than it is by these big national behemoth companies. So, the idea is if we really go in to take care of the needs of the community, it may be health related.

It may be, um, it, it could be whatever we, we, we want it to be. And Matt brought up the international franchise professionals organization, and that one is really important. Because pharmacy owners do not have the time to create new models to create new businesses. You know, Mike, that's like me asking you to start a home healthcare agency.

You're gonna look at me like, what, what are you talking about? I, there's no way I could add that to my plate. Well, franchises, franchises, they have the systems in place and here's the great. About the international franchise professional groups. There are other ones out there, but the one we're partnering with red and his team, they will provide a franchise consultant and you don't pay a dime to evaluate a franchise.

And that's really cool when I found that out, it became really clear to me that the model. The franchise model was gonna be really, really important. Um, so when you're looking at a home healthcare agency, instead of starting one from the scratch, you can consult with a franchise consultant. And if you decide to put a home healthcare franchise in your business, The franchise will pay the franchise consultant.

So you then cost you a dime. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: When people think of franchises, they think that they're gonna be bringing in, uh, you know, wearing a silly hat and, and selling, you know, aunt Janie's cookies or something like that. But there's a million franchises. A lot of 'em might easily fit in a 15 by 15 office or something like 

that.

Ben Coakley: You said it better than I could say it. Yeah. I mean, You literally could put a desk and run with it, with the technology. I was looking at a franchise the other day about helping kids. there's a big gap now with the COVID, uh, with COVID and learning, you know, we've had a generation of kids, who've who we gotta catch 'em up now because they've been, you know, so if, if they did remote learning, this is not the same.

Well, so there's a franchise that's been born now again, I was just looking at it cuz it looks really cool, but you can run this franchise. with three computers. So the idea is we can really start to work and meet the needs. Now we're gonna have certain things that we know work well in the pharmacy model that we'll bring.

But like Matt said, the goal is to get pharmacy owners to start to think differently about the model. Where can we make a difference with patients and make money? And not deal with the third party for reimbursement. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Someone listening to this might say full speed ahead with pharmacy. It's not working, but I'm gonna try to make it work out.

And they might say, I'll never have a separate little business in my business. My business is the business. Well, that's fine. But. If they go out of business and then they've got a building sitting there and then they're thinking, do I go work for somebody else? Or do I try to do something else? Then they do something else before you know it, they open up, they've got these little offices, they're a pharmacist still.

And they're doing what you're saying. My point is, think about it. Maybe before you go all the way down, you lock the door for a week and then decide how to open it up again. Maybe there's a way to do it without locking the door for a week. 

Yeah. 

Ben Coakley: And I think that's a challenge. I think that's a challenge because there's no prototypical independent pharmacy.

Yeah. They're all shaped differently. They look differently. Um, you know, they have different patient populations. So I mean, it's, it's, that is the challenge behind this. So if you get into this concept and I read a great article the other day, uh, and it was in, um, one of the magazines, one of the pharmacy magazines, and I was talking about.

Pharmacies have to transition to patient relationship management. And I love that. I love that idea because you're now starting to expand your services outside, just the pharmacy you're managing. So, when you look and you start to segment your patient populations, if you realize, Hey, I I'm 50% Medicare.

Okay, well, we need to find something. that our Medicare people are aging. People want, [00:50:00] because 50% of our business is underwater and, you know, or we find out, like Matt said, 10% of our patients are Medicare patients. Okay. Well that we we're, we're gonna look for different things to put in that model. So the key is to have a process.

That somebody could tap into where they can do the evaluation of their patients and then find the components that will make sense to add to their pharmacy of tomorrow. I hope 

Mike Koelzer, Host: that people who've listened to us chatting here at minimum, this will get them thinking they might be totally against it. I don't think so, but they might be totally against what you're talking about here, but hopefully then if you're against it that much, you're at least saying I'm against it because I think this is gonna happen in 2030.

And then we've done our job today of having people think about 2030, regardless of what they think their 

Ben Coakley: The answer is. I've never lost hope that we're gonna win. I know that good conquers, evil, the. always, always conquers darkness. I've never given up hope that we're gonna win this war against the PBMs. I've never given up hope.

Mike, on that, the thing that scares me the most is what's gonna be left on the other side. And, uh, so that's what that's, what's driving this, this whole idea, the 20, 30 future in the pharmacy of tomorrow it's we have to do things. To adapt the pharmacy model's been around for a long time. Listen, our company, if I told you in 20 years, this is our third time reinventing yourself.

And the third time things happen so fast in our model, every six, seven years, we're reinventing our model. And it's exhausting. You know, it's a ton of work, but it's a requirement. If we wanna stay in business, it takes 

Mike Koelzer, Host: continual change. And just because Mrs. Smith comes in and tells you how much she loves you and how much she loved your grandpa and your dad and all that, it's like, that's good, but we can't just be stuck in the same way because Mrs.

Smith said that we also don't have to really get away from it because of Mrs. Smith's. Trust in us and trust in our grandparents and our parents. We can use that to our advantage. We can't stay like we were, but we can still use that trust to our advantage, what you guys are talking about today. 

Ben Coakley: That's the thing that makes this whole thing work is to trust in the influence that pharmacies have.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Pharmacists have still taken care of people for the last 10 years when they've getting screwed, that if they make some money, unless they get greedy and don't know how to handle it, they're gonna even take more care of 'em if they maybe get paid again for some of that stuff. It's 

Ben Coakley: crazy. We have a saying before we walk out of our office, it's above our door and it says a journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.

So I think that's, that's really that. surround yourself with good people who care for you and those who walk with you on this journey. And there's nothing in the world that we can't accomplish together for the betterment of families and communities across America. I think Mike, you're committed to it with this podcast to try to help pharmacies.

I think we're all in this together, I think, and I think we're better together. Doing this there's a great speech by Teddy Roosevelt. He wrote it back in the late 1800s called the man in the arena. It wasn't very politically correct, but he wrote it's called the man in the arena. And it's so important that we try that we're in the arena.

We don't want to be. With the poor. He called them the poor timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat, because they were sitting on the sidelines and they refused to get in the arena. Yeah. And that's my challenge to pharmacy owners, community pharmacies get in the arena. You've got to be in it, whether it's politically, whether it's working on your business model, what, whatever.

Get in the arena, don't be that poor timid soul who just didn't try because you thought it was insurmountable or you thought it's not gonna make a difference. And, uh, because you do, you do make a difference. You matter to the people you serve to the communities you serve, you matter to them. And because you matter to them, you matter to us.

And that's why we're always gonna fight with you. That's my 

Mike Koelzer, Host: love of the podcast here is because sometimes we come across things in the industry and either you got somebody who's just bitching up a storm. or you've got somebody that is all positive about how people are killing it, you know, and they're doing great.

It's neat to have the length of a conversation because that's life. It's got us ups and downs just by chance. When COVID hit, when I started working [00:55:00] more in the pharmacy the last five years, I wasn't there very much. And, uh, boy, you wouldn't know it by the remuneration that we're getting, but pharmacists are really important.

Being out there now we don't do vaccinations yourself, but all the pharmacists that are vaccinating, I mean, I was talking to someone else. They said they didn't know if the SCOTUS, Arkansas determination they made. Would've gone through without COVID, you know, without seeing pharmacists out there. So who knows what's gonna come.

We have 

Ben Coakley: hope. Listen, what if we transform the model, we're providing this wonderful service with this wonderful profitability and we win and we get the wins. That brings some kind of sanity back into the reimbursement model where we, or the DRR fees we get rid of 'em and, or whatever. And I mean, just think about that.

I mean, I, I that's, that's my hope. When I was a 

Mike Koelzer, Host: kid, I always thought if I ever got cancer, I'd be the best cancer patient. I'd be nice to all the nurses. And I would mm-hmm, try to bring some levity to it and stuff. And as I get older, it's like, I'd be the worst cancer patient. yeah. I would just be an Orry son of a bitch after like eight hours in my hospital bed.

But here's the point with cancer. If you could get a cancer diagnosis, it's like trying to find something in just six months. You know, because in six months, yeah. Who knows what's gonna happen? That's like with our businesses, try to hang on for six months. You don't know what's gonna happen. You don't know COVID you didn't know.

Maybe that PPP might have helped out or, you know, or some other loan or you don't know all that stuff. So just hang in there for six months, it comes in steps, you know, you can't see it all, but hold on for six months and there's gonna be some life there. And what's 

Ben Coakley: Really cool when you start having the conversation at the level we're having it.

It's just, you get filled with. There are a lot of really good people who want independent pharmacies to make it that's really important. There are a lot of people that want you to make it, cuz they wanna keep making money off you they're those guys too, but there are a lot of really good ones. People, I call 'em friends.

Yeah. Friends to pharmacies who want, who, who believe in independent community pharmacy and what you mean for and what you stand for and who you are. And you have to have hope that knowing that there are people out there, there, there are people who are rooting for our business to succeed. And you know that because they know the impact we're trying to make in the world.

And. When you know that you've got advocates on your side, people are pulling for you and fighting with you in the arena with 

Mike Koelzer, Host: you moving forward and trying to make change. And you guys have taken us out 10 more years, so way to go. All right. You guys keep 

Ben Coakley: it up. Thanks, Mike. Yep. 

Matt Coakley: Thank you so much. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: We enjoyed it.

Thank you very much. Talk to you again.