Learning to Tell Your Pharmacy Story | Neal Smoller, PharmD, Founder of 'Supplement School'

This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.

[00:00:12] Mike Koelzer, Host: Neil. Thanks for 

[00:00:12] Neal Smoller, PharmD: joining us. I am pleased. Thanks for having me on your show today. I've 

[00:00:16] Mike Koelzer, Host: been trying to track you down, but you're so busy. 

[00:00:19] Neal Smoller, PharmD: I pretend I'm busy. You know, I like to look busy, so that way people think I'm important, you know, it's really a bad ego thing. And it's probably because my parents didn't hug me enough.

I don't know. I'm trying to, I'm trying to correct it for my kids. 

[00:00:31] Mike Koelzer, Host: I only had one store, but I always wanted to, so I could hide between the two of them. 

[00:00:37] Neal Smoller, PharmD: I had four and it was a nightmare. I had three pharmacies and a vitamin. 

[00:00:42] Mike Koelzer, Host: And how many physical places do you 

[00:00:44] Neal Smoller, PharmD: have now? One, I have one location and, you know, they say it's like, you focus and you do better.

But I would think that you can also scale up pretty well. I think the big thing for me was that I own three, three pharmacies, and I own them right. When everything was falling to pieces. So the stores that were doing well were all of a sudden not doing well. And then, so then there goes our lifeblood, you know, 

[00:01:07] Mike Koelzer, Host: so, well, let's bring you in here.

So Neil, tell the listeners, give us your name. 

[00:01:13] Neal Smoller, PharmD: My name is Dr. Neil Smolar. I'm a pharmacist. 

[00:01:16] Mike Koelzer, Host: Tell us the bigger things you have going on. Give us a chunk of those. And then we're going to back up and hear about some of that 

[00:01:22] Neal Smoller, PharmD: misery. Yeah. So I call myself a holistic pharmacist because I own a practice just like most listeners here do in the most famous small town in America called Woodstock New York.

And so we have a practice here, but we also have an ecommerce business, Woodstock, vitamins. Uh, I also am a host of a podcast and I do a lot of content marketing, but, uh, in a few weeks here, I'll be launching an online education platform for people to, uh, teach them how to build a supplement practice, where their expertise is at the center and that's called supplement school.

So that's the big projects that I have working on are Woodstock, vitamins, the podcast, and supplant. 

[00:02:04] Mike Koelzer, Host: It's supplement school going to be a, hopefully a good moneymaker 

[00:02:10] Neal Smoller, PharmD: for me. Um, I'm thinking that it'll be a good revenue source. It will augment what we're already kind of doing with the supplement sales itself.

I think it's a value added service. And my big goal here is two big goals. You obviously make money as is the underlying thing that we are all doing as business owners. But the, the, the two big goals are to help build an army of other practitioners who are like-minded and kind of see that the way that supplements and alternative care and holistic care is being done is kind of sketchy.

And we need somebody to lead that. And the other thing is like, I want to build up my kind of authority on the subject. I would love to speak. I love teaching. I love speaking and teaching people things in all different areas of the country. So that's the two big goals from the supplement. Okay, Neil.

[00:03:00] Mike Koelzer, Host: So when you build up the supplement school, then you'll sort of build a new awareness that if you're going to buy vitamins, do it from a reputable medical, professional and so on, but not necessarily under a brand 

[00:03:15] Neal Smoller, PharmD: name. I don't care if people don't like wholesaling and I do wholesaling to practitioners all across the country.

Right. But I don't care if no one wants to buy my supplements. And I, I care about teaching people, the model to, to provide holistic care. Education is much more important to me and I hopefully will help them make good decisions about the supplements that they bring in. So that way we can look patients in the eye and give them the experience that they're looking for, that they're not getting elsewhere and be able to sleep at night, be able to sleep at night.

Here's the, here's the big wrap Mike, um, supplements are another c'mon. Right. We're going from one commodity prescription drug to another one of supplements. And the only thing that gives us a competitive advantage is us. We are professionals, we're legitimate, we're credentialed, and our expertise. The one that I'm trying to teach everybody is a very unique expertise in the marketplace.

And Amazon and MVP and Caremark, they can't copy the expertise and, and the knowledge of the person delivering this information to the public. So, I want to de-commoditize supplements, um, and raise the bar on the public perception of the supplement. That makes sense. I do a lot of mental health coaching too.

In my, in my profession. That's a big part of holistic care dealing with stress and anxiety. Well, for 

[00:04:48] Mike Koelzer, Host: sure you could trace a lot of stuff over eating and all that down to a lot of mental health problems. And it's 

[00:04:54] Neal Smoller, PharmD: entirely that. Yeah, I believe that our nutrition problems have nothing to do with the food and as all to do with the behavioral and psychology.

Yeah. 

[00:05:02] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. All right, Neil, take us back. When I think of independent pharmacies, most people think of, you know, two or three mile radius. The advertising goes out this far, no matter how good you are, you're only going to bring people from three miles away and blah, blah, blah. The national distribution is so cool because it's all the opposite of that.

You can do national advertising, national sales, 

[00:05:24] Neal Smoller, PharmD: you know, which has national problems as well. 

[00:05:26] Mike Koelzer, Host: Let's bring the audience into how you got there and tell us about some ups and downs. As far as stores you owned and then sold and so on. What got us to 

[00:05:37] Neal Smoller, PharmD: this point? So I opened a pharmacy in my hometown with my partner and mentor.

Um, and his name is Pete. Probably the best pharmacist I've ever met. He's an excellent community pharmacy kind of like that quintessential guy. Right. And so we opened up in our hometown of Saugerties New York, which is where Jimmy Fallon's from, of course. Uh, but anyway, so we opened up our pharmacy and I kinda got the itch to expand and do more.

Um, about four years later, I decided that I wanted to open an integrative practice. Uh, and again, most of us look at supplements as a profit model. And so I opened up this practice and one of the things that I realized quickly with supplements is that there's gold in them Hills. The industry's a mess because you know, our role as a pharmacist is to kind of question to make sure, you know, is this the right dose?

Is this backed by evidence? Is this really what it says it is? So when you start asking those tough questions in the supplement industry, you end up like either at dead ends or you end up with like a mess on your hand, you're talking, 

[00:06:37] Mike Koelzer, Host: integrating what? Prescriptions 

[00:06:39] Neal Smoller, PharmD: in vitamins and supplements. Yeah. So basically when people would come to my store here in what's.

We would, they would say I need to sleep. And what I would say to them is, do you want traditional, or do you want natural? Or do you want the best? And so people have an inclination to say the pharmaceutical industry is corrupt. I want to be natural. And I kind of try to point out to them that the natural products industry is crap.

But anyway, so what will allow them to pick whichever route they want to go, and then we'll give them the best versions of those products that, that are available to us, uh, or the best sometimes, you know, traditional, uh, like pharmaceuticals are the way to go. So, we're honest with people about that. So I felt like my job and my role was to move people back into the middle, where we have people on the ends of the spectrum, just like we do politically.

Now we have them on the ends of the spectrum, medically, where like people are putting crystals on their steering wheel and saying, you know, drive me somewhere all the way to the doctors that are like, supplements are horrible. We need large randomly controlled trials. Like that's all that's, that's good.

So I feel like everybody needs to get moved back to the middle of the people that are more naturally inclined. They need to understand. Drugs truly, and not believe the blog BS that's out there. 

[00:07:47] Mike Koelzer, Host: Oh, you did that with your second store. You tried to focus on that more. Yeah. That 

[00:07:51] Neal Smoller, PharmD: was our big focus. And then we then of course brought it to our original store and, and we were doing it there as well.

And then, um, so, so it was, and it was taking off. It was doing really well. And if I was smart at the time, I would've got into e-commerce because it was like 2010 before e-commerce really was taking off like that. Would've been the smart move then, but instead I kept opening up stores because that's what I knew how to do.

And this was the biggest downfall, I know, retail. So I'm opening retail at the time when retail is dying and I'm not really paying attention to that, you know? So we opened up and we wanted to do something with this supplement thing. And instead of going into e-commerce, I said, let's go retail. So we opened up two hours away from our Woodstock store in west Hartford, Connecticut, a supplement only store where we brought the best parts of a pharmacy, the pharmacist to the.

Vitamin business. 

[00:08:39] Mike Koelzer, Host: Why two hours away? Did you feel you wanted to go that far to get a new whatever direction or name or whatever? Partly 

[00:08:45] Neal Smoller, PharmD: because I'm dumb, but partly because we did, we did a, uh, a marketing. I actually did a full market analysis of a 150 mile radius from Woodstock, New York and determined.

There were like five or six ideal marketplaces and West Hartford is an ideal marketplace. So if you're wanting to open up an integrated practice, go right ahead. It's a great community to do that. I just live two and a half hours away. So it did have the best data. And we were pretty successful, I would say, but because it was two hours away and I was really bad at managing everything, um, because that's kind of a pharmacist, right?

We're, we're not that great at this whole thing. So, um, so I tried and, um, but, and, you know, and then retail was changing and downtowns were changing and all of this stuff was happening. Amazon was coming up and w you know, the biggest lesson from that store was. You know, people view supplements as commodities.

They really think that if, if you get a tumeric, you know, it's overwhelming to them first and foremost, so we could help them guide through the process. But they really believe that turmeric is tumeric and fish oil is Fisher fishermen. And we know that that's not true. There's different forms, different doses, the potential contaminants, the adulterants, all of the problems are there, but they are, they are not aware of it.

And they kind of don't care. Um, so that was a big lesson there. And it also taught me how to mark and how to deliver a message. Uh, and then an opportunity came up back two hours away from west Hartford, back in, in Kingston, New York, where a medical group was moving into this major complex. And they wanted my experience in their location.

They wanted to refer to me. They wanted us to compound. They wanted us to do classes and supplements and diabetic education and all this stuff. And we have this big, beautiful store. And then. The floor fell out. That's when the Medicare D cuts happened. The first round of it, um, New York Medicaid switched to manage, uh, care from fee for service.

Uh, compounding got its teeth kicked in with all the deaths and the meningitis stuff. So nobody was paying for compounds anymore. And then the medical practice got bought out by another huge cause that's what was happening as well. And the new huge group was like, yeah, we're not going to support you.

Like you're on your own. In fact, we're going to encourage people to get a Medicare D plan that you can accept and all of that other stuff. And you can come talk to the doctors anymore. And so between the compounding of the cuts and the reimbursement, the medical group changing hands and my failures as a manager, cause like.

That's where I really, really learned how to run a business was in this failure piece, like where I am losing. Um, so that's where I learned it, but I realized that too late and we couldn't execute to save the ship because again, the numbers are kind of declining as we go. So I just decided that's it.

I'm done. I have young children I'm missing out. I did this whole thing. So I could be, you know, for the kids, quote unquote. But I realized that I was just working all the time. And so I decided I'm going to fold up the one store, the newest store because whatever, I wasn't gonna get a lot of money for it.

Anyway, I sold my flagship store. We were doing about 1800 scripts. So I sold to the chain and I was going to just keep the vitamin store, the online presence and my Woodstock integrated practice. And I decided that like a few months into this switchover after I've sold and folded the stores that the retail problems that I had to deal with two and a half hours away, weren't worth the hassle either.

When, you know, my manager's like, ah, you know, I, I don't want to work weekends anymore. And I'm like, I don't want to have to go through this whole cycle of finding somebody new and training them. And so I just decided, you know what, let's just go digital. And I went digital and about 60% of my customers followed me.

All right, Neil. So you 

[00:12:11] Mike Koelzer, Host: say you went digital, do that. Totally. Or then you still had one store then. 

[00:12:16] Neal Smoller, PharmD: So it means that I kept the Woodstock store and that was the original one, the original one. And, you know, because it was mixed and we were doing really well here, you know, and, and the vitamin store was doing okay, but it's like, it's just a hassle.

So I said, let's switch to a digital model. And I said, you guys can buy your supplements online and you can buy them over the phone if you have to, if you don't like the internet and we'll do consults via Skype and we'll, we'll talk to you and we'll, we'll solve your problem and they can buy from you there.

Yeah. And again, 60% of them followed us. So then I didn't have to have one, because West Hartford has very expensive real estate. I don't have to have a $12,000 a month rent bill. You know, 

[00:12:51] Mike Koelzer, Host: when did you go through the name, change of your vitamin to 

[00:12:53] Neal Smoller, PharmD: Woodstock? So this is a funny story. So then, so after the dust has settled, I'm now saying, okay, what am I going to be right?

Who am I going to be? W w who have I built myself to be at this point? What am I going to do? I started getting into the e-commerce world and I want to do digital space. I want to get into content marketing. I want to do all of this stuff. So I go to every conference. I did like six conferences in like five months.

And I was explaining to people who I was, and I was saying village vitality. That was the name of our business, incorporating a village apothecary with the idea of vitality and wellness and such rights. I don't know, it was probably like 80% of the people were like, is that a male enhancement pill? And I said, oh, I got to change the name, man.

Because this is dumb. So I changed the name to Woodstock vitamins because I stink at branding, but I also wanted people to know that, uh, you know, we're from Woodstock and I think that's important to know. Cause it's got a rebel mentality in your store 

[00:13:50] Mike Koelzer, Host: at the time wasn't called 

[00:13:51] Neal Smoller, PharmD: Woodstock. It was a village apothecary.

Yeah. So, like it's a village apothecary, but we have all village vitality supplements. We decide to change what vitamins. Now we've got Woodstock vitamin supplements and, and we're telling people why we're doing this and they're getting excited. And that's the part that I'll tell, share with your listeners is that through this process, the thing that I learned that was most important for me as an entrepreneur is the messaging.

Whether it's the messaging to the employees, whether it's the messaging to the community, to your future people, it's how. The message is perceived by them, not by you. So you need to make sure that your messaging is really, really successful. So it's not like, oh, Boohoo, we have to close this vitamin store.

It's yay. We've understood that there's a changing times and we're going to go digital and we're going to succeed and you're going to help us, you know? And, and so it's becoming a cheerleader. Forcing the narrative a little bit. Um, and then doing the same thing with employees, like, oh, it looks like we're closing multiple stores and your job's in jeopardy, but that's actually to refine this whole process.

And, and so, and here's examples of when we did have to close the store, here's how well we took care of people and how we helped people transition to a new new position. Yeah. Yeah. So then 

[00:14:59] Mike Koelzer, Host: it's like 2000 16, 

[00:15:01] Neal Smoller, PharmD: 17, 17, yep. 2017. You've got one 

[00:15:04] Mike Koelzer, Host: store and you've got this online. 

[00:15:07] Neal Smoller, PharmD: Product. Yep. Woodstock vitamin. So it's our supplements.

And then all of the marketing that's going along 

[00:15:13] Mike Koelzer, Host: with it. Had you been selling online a little bit before that, or was that your first foray into the online 

[00:15:20] Neal Smoller, PharmD: online sales is extremely difficult. Um, I think most people, if they turned on an online store right now, it would just be a convenient, um, experience for their existing customers.

And that's what it really was. For a couple of years in order to make it. And this is, this has been reinforced a lot by the gurus that I've looked to and talked to over the years, um, to make a million bucks on the internet, you need to spend about a million and a half dollars. Um, so in order to get your name out there at this point in the game, you really have to have something super unique or you have to just spend a ton of money.

Right? And so we're going through that process where like, you know, we have digital marketers and we're doing all the testing and like running the ads and checking the message and doing all of that stuff. And, um, I'm looking at it going at, you know, this is cool. And, um, but I'm not thinking that this is my ideal situation.

I prefer not the sales of the product, but the education, I prefer teaching people stuff. And it really was. Uh, uh, I'm, I'm creating an ebook that I'll be, that'll be available on our site that I encourage people to get like, uh, Neil's 10 supplement mistakes, and it talks about some of the dumb things that I did.

And so after like, uh, one of the big things, which is hiring the wrong people and getting double-crossed, uh, I decided, okay, I really need to identify who I am and what this business is going to be to me. And that's where I decided I want to be the guy that is, is promoting what this vision has been and, and bringing other people to the table to help me champion this movement and around supplements and, and doing what I call I've called for six years now, or seven years now, wellness with integrity.

Yeah. There's a ton of it out 

[00:16:55] Mike Koelzer, Host: there without that. 

[00:16:56] Neal Smoller, PharmD: Oh yeah. I mean, that's the entirety of the industry. And if anybody, um, if anybody says the supplement industry is regulated or it's not as bad as you say they are. Unaware, completely unaware of how bad this industry is. Um, in our weekly articles we put out like, okay, so here's your quality update on milk thistle?

Here's your quality update on Saul Palmetto? And we, I mean, I'm not an expert I referred to expert and I built my neck workup to find the people that are really passionate about this. And I just kind of aggregate it all together. So, you know, I can say, well, this is what's going on with collagen right now.

So everybody's selling collagen, but it's diluted with lower cost proteins. And it's, uh, those lower cost proteins have potential heavy metal and melamine contamination. And like, this is what's going on with salt Palmetto. They're not even using plants, they're using, uh, animal fat to make the fatty acids, fatty acid profile look the same.

And so like, if you were, if you're saying that the supplementary is fine and, and I'm, I'm being dramatic, that means you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm sorry. You know, and, and, and then that's just the product side of things. There's this whole other. Level to it, which talks about the recommendations.

[00:18:04] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. I was going to say the product is suspect, but then all the claims that people are 

[00:18:09] Neal Smoller, PharmD: making, right. Oh my, yeah. Yeah. My favorite thing to do when I do an article is I approach this from a consumer standpoint, I Google whatever the topic is and I, you know, I have all the tools. So then I can look at all the different searches that people are actually putting in.

And so then I address each one of those bits of misinformation that I find, and that's how I approach my content marketing. So. What is collagen and then like, I can see all the BS that these charlatans cause that's really what they are. Snake oil salesmen are putting out there about what college can do for you.

And then I address it with the real science and say, well, no, that's not factually accurate. You know? And again, I'll be the first one to say that I know that supplements have really, really weak evidence. Right. So, yeah. So if we talk about the three problems with the supplement, it's the product quality and manufacturing due to the poor regulations, it's the recommendations that are made by charlatans and the, and the horrible claims.

And then the third thing is that those recommendations are based on weak or non-existent evidence because of the supplement history. Has got poor data to support its 

[00:19:08] Mike Koelzer, Host: use. We had a book in the pharmacy or we had one and it was written by this company for the non pharmacist's listeners called facts and comparisons.

And so it really gives a scientific level and things. But if you'd look at the scene, I've never seen a book that had more things that said like possibly, perhaps maybe, you know, it would just fall off those disclaimers. Like they didn't really 

[00:19:32] Neal Smoller, PharmD: now. Yeah. And I think that's the most responsible thing to say on, on my show, I just had a researcher and like a data expert on, and we were talking about how all of this stuff, all of the claims are just one line and we're supposed to take those lines and turn them into a whole story.

And so it's not until we have a bigger picture. So it's our responsibility to say, you're right. The data is poor, but there's nuggets out there that we can grab onto and then extrapolate from and, or, you know, disprove them. Reviews. So fish oil comes up every 10 minutes in the New York times. There's an article where fish oil doesn't work.

And if you look at the reviews, they're looking at the crappy products that are out there. So if you're basing your data on the bad products, then you're only going to get bad, bad data garbage in, garbage out. So it's all low dose stuff. You know, pharmacists know that Lovaza is a SEPA that has not only, um, uh, secondary data, but, you know, outcomes, data too.

And so. It's all about dose. And, and so when, when I'm doing supplements and what I try to teach people is that first we have to educate consumers that the supplement industry isn't what we think it is. It's a deceptive industry. I think it should be referred to as the wellness industrial complex, it is a propaganda machine selling bad products that most of us don't need that really won't do anything and has the big potential to harm you.

So we have to explain it politically. And that's what pharmacists are really good at is making sure that we're not, you know, uh, bashing stuff, right? Cause like you go, you go to the doctor and you say, I want to use mushroom supplements. He's like that stuff doesn't work. Right. And as a result, patients stopped turning to traditional practitioners because pharmacists are never taught this stuff and doctors just say it doesn't work.

So now they go to all the charlatans that are giving you. What they want to hear, but they're not giving them the real responsible 

[00:21:20] Mike Koelzer, Host: advice. And so when you say politically you mean you have to do it in a politically correct manner, tell them that there's problems, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater kind of thing.

[00:21:29] Neal Smoller, PharmD: Right? So one of my, and this is one of the things I talk about in supplement school. One of my favorite and most effective marketing tools, I had a big metal bin that I put right by the door and I put a rip tombstone and it says where bad vitamins go to. And I called it the supplement graveyard. And so when people came in and they said, this is the supplement I take, can you review this for me?

And we found and had proof that it wasn't what it said. It is. It's the wrong dose. It's the wrong form. We would take their bottle and throw it in there. And then people would come in and say, oh my God, why is that brand in there? I didn't know that. And then we would have the conversation. So, the idea here is that there's ways to teach people and nudge them back towards the middle to help them understand what the industry is and what it says without just poo-pooing and being dismissive.

And I think too many of us, uh, either like we don't know, or we're just dismissive of it. And as a result, we are not leading anymore and they go to these quacks and, uh, and they're getting bad information. And these are our patients. Yeah. Yeah. Right. When 

[00:22:27] Mike Koelzer, Host: You went to these schools and through some of your own experiences and things, were there things that you thought like this would work?

Dang. I was stung again, but I learned from it. So did you have any recent mistakes that you should have done differently? 

[00:22:43] Neal Smoller, PharmD: Yeah, the real essence athens. Absolutely. My failures are the things that are going to propel me forward. There are two big things that I will say the, the, the biggest one. And this is what we spend some time on in supplement.

School is talking about your story because in this economy, everyone is connected not to a product, to a story. And so we neglect our story. We're independent. Pharmacists. People should know what our story is, but know who I am in this world? And what am I trying to give to you? And then accept the fact that some people aren't going to care about that story, and they're not going to want it, but you're putting your story out there continuously.

And you have to get really good at identifying what that is, who you are to people and just constantly messing you. That was once I accepted that, that has been like a catalyst to my growth. 

[00:23:30] Mike Koelzer, Host: And your story goes partially into. Past and into your 

[00:23:34] Neal Smoller, PharmD: future. Right? Of course. Yeah. And so, you know, there are lots of different resources for building a brand story.

I personally love park Howell. He's a brand, uh, a story guru. And, uh, he's amazing. And, and if you can, in the show notes, link people out to him. He's the one that really changed it for me. I was on his story on his podcast telling my story. And so, um, you know, he's a real, real smart guy and he gives her a really good tool, but essentially there are lots of different ways to convey your story.

But yes, for me, my story to my customers digs into my credibility as a pharmacist, my story to other professionals digs into my failures. It digs into the shared experience of saying, listen, I've paid. Probably hundreds of thousands of dollars in failed experiments from, from businesses promising me to make a million bucks off of their stupid method.

So I will never be that guy. I'm going to give you a fire hose of value. You're going to just get so much value out of what I'm providing, because I don't ever want to be associated with that kind of thing, which we all know exists. Right. So we all know that there's that, oh, pay $500 a month for the, you know, our digital marketing package.

And people are like, what the heck am I even getting out of this? That like, and, and so, you know, that, you know, that story that I tell is, you know, is dependent upon the audience, of course, and that's an important thing, but, but the, the story is the most important. 

[00:25:01] Mike Koelzer, Host: You tell a story, I knew you were from the very start.

Sometimes your stories, not from. An actual verbal story from beginning to end, but I heard right away that you were talking about your acceptance of your learning and your failures and things like that. So you're getting your story across, not necessarily telling the whole story, but you know, your vision in your mind.

And you're going to insert that at certain parts of the conversation, even though it might not be from the beginning to the end story in 10 minutes or something like that. Yeah, 

[00:25:34] Neal Smoller, PharmD: of course there and strategic storytelling is a very important skill and it only comes from practice. And so one of the things that, again, I try to teach people when I'm mentoring or doing any of this stuff is that you'll only get better from practice.

So figure out what you're going to say and try it, see how it lands. Look at people's eyes. See if they're, you're, they're sticking with you or not. And it takes that practice. And again, I can speak to all of this because I've been doing it day in and day out for a decade. So I've been having conversations.

I want fish oil, I have joint pain, I need to sleep. Right. And so I'm not the smartest guy in the. By any means, I'm actually a pretty big dummy when it comes to all this stuff. So I reach out to people that are experts that teach me the methods, and now I've implemented them in a more refined kind of process.

So I think that, you know, practicing your story and identifying it and practicing and refining it and allowing it to adapt and change is important. The number two thing I learned most recently that I think is most important to all of us, um, is that I thought the entrepreneur was the guy that takes the risks.

You know, I'm the guy that takes the risk. I can get this done. And then I execute and I do it and sometimes I have to shoulder it and I just push through, uh, but the entrepreneur's role is to take the kicks in the face and to take the kicks in the face. And then when it's so much you get knocked down, the entrepreneur's role is to stand back up and keep fighting.

And that didn't really kind of crystallize for me until I got it. My most recent, like a big blow up at the store. Like, that's my skill. My skill is in taking risks and getting stuff done. And the fact that I'm, you know, good at whatever, you know, that has nothing to do with it. The thing that differentiates me from anybody else out there is the fact that I keep getting up when I get kicked so hard.

I got knocked down. Everybody else would look at the stuff that I've been through and be like, dude, you lost $2 million. Oh my God, you, you lost these years with your young children. You were betrayed like this. Right. They would look at all of those things and go, I just can't, I'm not going to do it. But every single time, I made sure that I got back up.

And if you look at the big success stories, um, there's a lot of people that have gotten kicked down quite a bit that are now successful. And I think that the key is not just being able to take the risks, but being able to take the risk and be willing to get kicked so hard. You get knocked down and get back up.

All right. Let me ask 

[00:27:57] Mike Koelzer, Host: all of your kick downs and knock downs. Arguably we're in the pharmacy industry. 

[00:28:04] Neal Smoller, PharmD: Yeah, I got some in the supplement industry 

[00:28:06] Mike Koelzer, Host: too. Let me say pharmacy slash supplement. Sure. When does one say this? I am an entrepreneur, but I got kicked down for the last time here. I'm going to jump the fence somewhere else.

When do you jump off the Titanic? Let's say 

[00:28:23] Neal Smoller, PharmD: right. So we have a lot of people staring down. This abyss right now, right? So we're saying pharmacy's dying. What should I do? And this is, this is the big thing why I'm targeting pharmacists versus because we need a plan B right now. And I believe that I have a plan B, um, that is not just throw supplements in your store and try to make money off of that.

But to make you a wellness practitioner, because the pendulum is swinging in that direction. So you can finally get paid for your expertise and not for slinging some commodity. So, um, so I believe that pharmacist, the timing is now we have to do something and we have to be able to say, okay, I've I know the work that I have to do to build a business again, and I'm going to have to do it.

And the pharmacy isn't the place room anymore. So how do you know that you're at that point? Well, one of the things that I think is important to hear from somebody who's failed and lost and had to deal with all the contingency planning is that there is for us. So many contingencies, we're smart people. We are pharmacists.

We get paid. Well, we can, the worst case scenario make a hundred, 125,000 bucks a year. You know, if you want to work for the devil, you can make more than that, you know? Um, so, uh, so we'll have a solid foundation. And, and so the nice thing, and, and is that we have that safety net, but if you realize it, there are a lot more safety nets out there.

There's a lot more directions that we can go to. And when, when I was going through it, I'm telling you I had like 17, 18 different paths that I could have taken, and they were all good options. So, it's really kind of understanding it's not black and white, it's not going to be bankrupt and you're toast.

It's going to be like levels of, of failure, levels of loss, um, levels of a life that you weren't expecting, or weren't telling yourself the story about. Right. And, and so, and, and accepting that and just knowing that you're going to be okay and, and. You know, it's never the end. It's, it's never, uh, over if, if you have the tenacity, you, you, I mean, it's now I just said this to my wife this morning.

It's been four years since the darkest times in my life, the darkest times in my life. And we are about to have the biggest brightest year ever, right? Because of all the work that we've been doing and all the lessons that we've learned. And I believe that pharmacists can, can do that. Pharmacists can build a different model for themselves that incorporates their pharmacy training and their pharmacy background, the best parts of independent pharmacy and wellness and develop either something that's, you know, a part of a business that they have right now, or a completely different model that, that is.

That puts them in their expertise, uh, at the forefront. I know I 

[00:31:02] Mike Koelzer, Host: fail from that of going from you think things are bright and they Demme a little bit and you think they're going to go black, but when you've got the education, we have the tenacity to get through the education and to be owners and so on it doesn't go to black.

It may dim a bit while you're thinking of something else or whatever. Yeah. And 

[00:31:17] Neal Smoller, PharmD: I mean, it's okay to be like, I don't want to be an entrepreneur. I don't like getting kicked in the face. It makes me uncomfortable. That's not failure either. Dude. That's just realizing it's not for you. Just like that, I don't like certain types of food.

I don't like, uh, I don't like doing squats at the gym. Right. So there's things that don't fit our personality. That we can opt and say, you know what it wasn't for me. And the problem is, and this was the thing that I struggled with the most is the story I told myself and the story I was telling myself that other people were telling about me.

And once you drop that, I became like a mini Buddhist for a little bit, you know? And I am just in Zen and in the moment, once you drop that, it can completely liberate you to like, I don't really care what people say at this point. I'm 

[00:31:58] Mike Koelzer, Host: I heard one time that what other people think of you is really none of your business.

That's right. You know, that's their business, what they want to think about you. You said that we all wish we were Jeff Bezos and so on with their online stuff. How would you rate the not in dollars by any means, but how would you rate the success rate now of your online vitamin endeavor and how would you rate that as not successful, successful or very, and does that have room to grow still or do you think it's topped 

[00:32:27] Neal Smoller, PharmD: out and so on?

So here's the first thing you need to understand. There is no ceiling with, with the online industry. I met a guy that makes $70 million. Personally sell t-shirts. I met a dude that makes just 4 million a month in sales, on brushes. So there is no ceiling, especially if you open up the, to a global market with India and China, right.

There's no ceiling. So I don't believe that, um, uh, anybody has a fear of that. I believe that with supplements and with everything, I believe that I've maximized stage one, which is, you know, my audience and making sure that my audience is fully engaged and we have the lifecycle in place to keep people hooked and all of the stuff that's needed for e-commerce business.

To be honest with you. I don't think I would recommend a supplement based e-commerce business to somebody else. I don't think I would. I think that it's kind of a pain in the tush, you know, and to get your name out there. And the problem is, is that the success is fake, you know, because of the, the, the social media and the way that things are presented.

So you might see a brand everywhere, but they're running at a very, very, uh, uh, low margin, if not, no margin, um, uh, run to just try to get the revenue up to hopefully get a buyout. So they're not making any money. And I would prefer people to make a sustainable business. That's profitable from day one is a much better strategy than going for the big, uh, the big buyout.

So your 

[00:33:50] Mike Koelzer, Host: supplement school, but let me play devil's advocate. Are you recommending them? Into 

[00:33:57] Neal Smoller, PharmD: supplements. Yeah, no supplements are a big part of being a holistic practitioner and that's where the education, uh, lies. So not 

[00:34:04] Mike Koelzer, Host: online, but being one in their own store and so on. 

[00:34:07] Neal Smoller, PharmD: Yes. In your region, in your, in your area.

Right. So, and then have an e-commerce presence. So that way you can fulfill the people and keep it convenient for them. But then to say, I'm in Woodstock, New York, and I want to sell to somebody in San Jose, California. That is a big battle. It's not difficult. It's just different. It's completely different from the model that's in anybody's head, because it is all about numbers.

It's about metrics. It's about tracking and it's about just like. Just peppering the world and spending a ton of money and figuring out what message resonates and then just kind of fine tuning it. And like, it sounds simple when I say it like that, it is not a, it's a very expensive endeavor. Like right now we have just to try to get some college sales.

I have $10,000 a month spent on just Facebook marketing. Wow. Right. And, and so like, I've worked with people and they're like, oh yeah, we'd spend, I met a guy that spends $4,000 a day on marketing, baby, uh, garbage, whatever baby crap. He was selling at $4,000 a day on Facebook only. Right. And he generates sales from that, but he'll say honestly, No, we don't make any profit.

When at the end of the day we have extra revenue, but no profit. And that's the part like I would prefer you to just focus locally and be everything in your world. Instead of trying to take over the world, 

[00:35:29] Mike Koelzer, Host: do the best you can do right there. Question for ya. I know this has gone through your head with the Woodstock thing.

Have you thought about having hippies in marketing? My mom used to call them hippies, you know, and we grew up saying you don't like hippies and not three of my sons have hair that would probably make my mom turn over in her grave. But what have you decided to do or not to do about that Woodstock hippie image?

Okay. 

[00:35:55] Neal Smoller, PharmD: So this is a good question because when we were coming up with the original like marks and branding and everything like that, of course, like peace signs and all that, the basic BS that you would expect. And my designer is like, absolutely not. Cheeky. That's stupid. Like that's infantile. We're not doing that.

So, um, so what I do in my pharmacy though, is we have a very popular t-shirt that says, uh, village apothecary, and it's got, and the logos on a bus, the Volkswagen bus, and right below it, it says where aging hippies get their drugs. And that is the most popular widest reaching thing I've ever done locally.

Gotcha. People are like, they, they come into the store and they want, and I've just been giving it away to people because then they're going to wherever and they're wearing the t-shirt. So, yeah, so like that. That is always a thought, but we're trying to come up with a way, how do we make it remarkably like Woodstock?

There is something about us that we could, like if I had a pot store forget about it, I, I I'd have, I'd have the Jimmy Hendrix blunt and like all of that stuff. I do all of that. Um, but the, um, so we're trying to come up with a way to make it sarcastic and funny, just like me and factual and Woodstock. And that's what we're working on right now.

And you're right. Yeah. You want to, you want your story to like, just penetrate everything, every bit of the experience that your customers have with you. You want your story to invade that. So, so that's, that goes to the independent pharmacist too. So like the fact of community and the fact of, uh, that they're accessible and that you have great relationships and you have roots there.

That's all very important to make sure that its message is as much as possible. And it goes back to what I said. 

[00:37:31] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. If you're at a mellow mushroom, do you have mellow mushrooms where you are at the pizza place? Mellow mushrooms now? No, I visited my daughter down in North Carolina and they got this place mellow mushroom, and it's kind of the hippie image, you know, and, and I was stunned when I heard that was a chain of 160 restaurants because it just had so much flavor as an individual place.

Um, Neil, tell me about your don't give away secrets. Don't give away too much information, but tell me more about your hopeful and ongoing and starting monetization of the. Uh, supplement school. What do you hope for in that, in terms of subscription 

[00:38:08] Neal Smoller, PharmD: or whatever, like volume and stuff like that? I think I'm going by the rule of Fifths.

Like, I would say like, if I can, my classes are going to be 20, uh, deep. So I'm going to have 20 people in every class. And if I can have 20 people, a full class every month, I would consider it a success. If a fifth of those people say, Hey, I want to go to further training with you. I want to get the individual modules that dive deeper and become more of an expert then that's great.

And then if a fifth of those people say, Hey, I want to subscribe to having you as a resource, as a consultative, um, avenue as, um, someone that will give me new information as it's coming out and stay on the cutting edge. Then I would say that we're super successful in what we do again, the monetization side of it, like I'm doing well.

Like I just, you know, everybody knows like this is, this is something that will certainly augment. My big dream here is that this will fund my, my ultimate goal of creating a unique line of supplements that's using, I guess what we would call the ideal ingredients, right? I want to make a new line of supplements.

That's outside of what I've done that says, this is the best version of lion's mane. This is the best version of salt Palmetto, right? This is the best version of lutein. And I want it all under our brand and I want to sell it affordably to people and be transparent about it. So that's kind of like what I'm thinking here is that I want the, the, from the monetization side of it, this is good because it's a high gross profit item, but it's a high hour demand from me.

Right. So, um, so it's, it's good because there's not a lot of costs here, but it's bad because it's going to take a lot of me to help people. The cost is your time. Yeah. My time. I was a college professor. I taught pharmacology to nursing at a local community college for a few years after I graduated. I love teaching more than anything and I dream of retiring and teaching out of college.

Um, so the idea that I can be an educator now, I think that's, again, that's more important to me, but more importantly, I would say like from the monetization standpoint, my I'm not going to say you're going to make a million bucks, but I believe if you take even the basic class that I'm offering and you implement it and seek my help to make sure that it keeps going by focusing as I have people focus, I believe that you can increase your gross profit easily by 10,000 bucks a month, which is enough to justify a pharmacist.

So that way you can take a little bit of time off, right. Or you can then devote more time into growing this wellness practice. So I believe I can help people in a phase approach to either offset the losses that are happening. Or build a new model where they don't even need the pharmacy anymore and they can just do the supplements and advise people.

All right. 

[00:40:52] Mike Koelzer, Host: So now let me ask this. This is a question that you don't get from like your wife and stuff like that, but I'm going to ask it ha all of a sudden, Neil, someone says to you no more pharmacy, you know, you either have, um, nice, nervous breakdown that you don't want to ever touch a supplement or a drug again, or somebody pulls it out from underneath you.

What would you be doing? If not in pharmacy? Would you be no pharmacy at all? No pharmacy, no supplement, no medical, anything, nothing even close. And if you try to get some close, I'm going to say, no, 

[00:41:24] Neal Smoller, PharmD: you can't do that. Yeah. I mean, it's really tough because of what I've done. So I would probably do business.

You know, I would do business consulting because I feel like my losses and my failures and the people that I've, uh, have been advising me have taught me so much that I could go to every small business in every city and say, listen, for a couple hundred bucks, not a lot of money, I can help you turn this place around.

You know, I can make sure that you squeeze the money out. And I would probably do that. Yeah. I 

[00:41:48] Mike Koelzer, Host: would love to go into a business. You know, you see those shows on TV, like $10,000. Yeah. But even shark tank is a weird show because it seems like, it seems like to make it on shark tank. You gotta be super successful already.

[00:42:02] Neal Smoller, PharmD: So dumb. That's all. Yeah. It's all BS. It's dumb. It's just for TV. It's like, it's like American idol, 

[00:42:07] Mike Koelzer, Host: You know, you don't have $5 million in sales yet. We're not going to touch you. And it's like, well, if I had that, 

[00:42:12] Neal Smoller, PharmD: I wouldn't be here. Right. Unless you're like seeking the fame and the next level, I guess it's a 

[00:42:16] Mike Koelzer, Host: funding show.

I guess that's what they're trying to do with it. What's the worst part of your week? If you have one. So 

[00:42:24] Neal Smoller, PharmD: The only thing that I'll say is the worst part of my week is that I have so many people that rely on me. I have so many customers that are looking for my advice. I have so many staff that are looking for guidance.

So the worst part is that while I'm developing this, I write an eight page blog article. I do multiple podcasts a week. I'm doing this development of this training and building a website and trying to get the right words and doing all the marketing stuff. And I'm constantly getting interrupted and it's freaking flu season, you know?

So then I'm doing flu shots all the time and shingle shots and all this crazy stuff. So the worst part of my week is all of the times that I have to get broken away from doing the stuff I believe is most important for our future. The marketing, 

[00:43:03] Mike Koelzer, Host: do you have help on that for ideas or, or help saying, look, here's this type it up and put it on these, you know, five 

[00:43:10] Neal Smoller, PharmD: things or something.

One of my mentors, and I just had a discussion about this. She's had a business over the past 30, 40 years, and it's a wellness based business. They do retreats and such, and she's one of the most successful in the world. And, um, she said that she's paid by, you know, hundreds of marketing groups and none of them do what she needs them to do.

We're our own best marketers. And so when it comes to the content, it's 100% original. It's gotta be in my voice. I tried, I tried to get writers to do it. It's gotta be in my voice and it's gotta be, uh, my method and it's, it has to be me. So I say for me to be authentic in this world, I have to do it because otherwise it just sounds like all the other garbage that's like, that's all they're doing is mimicking everybody else.

So it just sounds like everybody else. So for me, I believe. The entrepreneurs that are listening should be doing their own marketing. They should be dedicating 10 to 15 minutes a day to just kind of say. What is it that I want to market? You know, what is it that I want to say about myself, and cause that's really what it is.

What am I trying to say about my business? 

[00:44:13] Mike Koelzer, Host: And here's what I always think about too. Like one time I tried to have my daughter do this and it didn't work out the way I wanted it to, she would have done fine. So you come up with, let's say, okay, I want to do this picture. I want to say this. And you sketch it out on a piece of paper.

Is there room for someone to hand that off to and say, here you college student, put this on these five sites and upload this picture. 

[00:44:36] Neal Smoller, PharmD: So this is covered in my ebook. That's coming up, which says that we have to own the process. So you can't just say, I want you to mark it for me. I want you to do marketing.

The best you can do is to break marketing up into smaller projects and, and, and have clear cut expectations and like to farm out the little projects and say, yes. Okay. So this is what I want. And then I want to give that to my graphic designer. My graphic designer comes back and gives me the image. Now I've got that image and I say, I want you to promote this.

Social media, and this is what I'm expecting to happen. Right. And that's what you have to do. And then once you build up trust with those people, then, then yes, you can start to farm out more and more. I always, I use the example when I'm training leadership, it's like smaller circles. So at the beginning, you're looping back very frequently in these short, small circles with people.

But then eventually you start to trust in the circles, get bigger where then it's just a very, very sporadic, random check-in, but that you still have to keep circling back. So I'm without a doubt. Yes. So like you could do that. But the thing is, I don't think anybody is taking enough ownership of the process.

I see too many people just trying to farm out too much stuff. They want to just come in and fill scripts. That's not your lot in life anymore. You're the boss. Somebody else will fill the scripts. You need to be the boss marketing and, and running the show and, and leading and, and, and that kind of 

[00:45:54] Mike Koelzer, Host: a thing.

Yeah. What is your favorite part? If someone said, Neil, we'll take all this stuff you don't want to do. What is your favorite? Of the week, 

[00:46:05] Neal Smoller, PharmD: everything that I'm doing right now is my favorite part. So, uh, media appearances, uh, writing my content, getting my content out there, you know, I tell my, cause I do have people that help us like write the blog article, put it on the website, you know what I'm saying?

That kind of stuff. Right. Like posting things. But again, that's what I'm talking about. I've got people like me, I have an e-commerce manager and like, he'll take my words, put it into an email and put it out there, what I've designed everything. Right. And so I've done all of that. Right. So it's me. And like, it's my content.

So then somebody's out there. So I. I would prefer it if I could just make this stuff. And then I had a team of people that just got it out everywhere. If I had that system, that would be excellent. Um, so my favorite thing is exactly what I'm doing right now and what I do, uh, often, which is educating, teaching and making content and marketing.

Like, I don't like the act of sales. I like the act of, of, um, of spreading a message that people can get behind. So 

[00:47:06] Mike Koelzer, Host: if you could, would you, um, and, and this is, this is not any ding on your customers at all, but it's just your personality. If you could, would you never want to be working? If talking one-on-one would you always like it to be media to the masses or to the small masses?

Because if someone comes in, they're still asking you a person to person question, let's say about a vitamin. Would you like to get rid of that and just do 

[00:47:32] Neal Smoller, PharmD: media? Well, no. So I think that it's an important part of it. And I have people from, you know, like New Mexico that are like, Hey, Dr. Neil, I want to know more about this thing, you know, through the online store, I saw this article and it's great, you know, to have people from the UK and Spain writing to me.

It's crazy. So, I enjoy that. I enjoy hearing from fans. I enjoy when people challenge the ideas that I'm putting out there. You said apple cider vinegar is nonsense. I think it's this. And then we can have a conversation. I love the one-on-one stuff very much. I just wish that, I guess I wish that it would be.

Defined portion of my day versus me having to be available for eight to 10 hours and then getting interrupted sporadically. I wish it was like, I can show up between 11 and four. And then that's the question time, you know, that's what I would have, ideally one-to-one question 

[00:48:25] Mike Koelzer, Host: without recording and even just, 

[00:48:26] Neal Smoller, PharmD: just one-to-one person.

One-to-one time. I enjoy helping people. You like people more than I do well with supplement school. I know it's going to be a lot more work. It's going to be a lot of. One-on-one stuff, you know, and I like it again. I like the idea that I did a webinar and 200 people showed up. That's great. I love cool weather.

And then yeah, 2000 people watched it after, like that's the kind of stuff that's really cool to me, but then I also then enjoy, Hey, I saw your webinar. I have this specific situation. I love doing that. That's all 

[00:48:59] Mike Koelzer, Host: really cool. What would you do? As someone said, uh, Neil, you, you have to take a three month sabbatical, really?

No computer. You can't really improve any part of your business and things. What would you be doing for three months? 

[00:49:16] Neal Smoller, PharmD: Video games, video games. I have actually, I, uh, I made a custom arcade where I can play all the old school arcade games. I've been playing Dr. Mario likes nuts, but I haven't played video games in a long, long time where I've been able to just sit there asteroids.

I've got asteroids. I got Donkey Kong. I got dug. I've got all the classics. I've got the new stuff. I've got the old stuff. We've got it all, man. And there's literally 4,000 video games in my house. I've been collecting old school video games, uh, for a long time. So I would love to just get caught up on some of the stuff that's out there and play video games.

That's it? Yeah. I mean, obviously I guess I have to talk to my kids, but besides that, do you have games on your phone currently? No. I hate that mobile gaming is the worst mobile gaming is corrupted gaming. Mobile gaming is yeah, cause it's just a, it's like a freaking slot machine, you know, I just think I want better controls and I want a better story and I want something a little bit more immersive and I don't want something where it's like, you have to pay.

To get upgrades and all that dumb stuff. My kid plays Fortnite and that's the dumbest thing ever. That's all, it's like playing Barbies. I'm telling him you're more worried about what you're dressing like than you are about being able to shoot the other team. You know, like let's focus on what's important here shooting other people, right.

Space invaders, space invaders, the classic 

[00:50:23] Mike Koelzer, Host: of course. Yeah. They say that some of those video games are better than all this new talk about being present and all that 

[00:50:30] Neal Smoller, PharmD: stuff. Well, I mean, being present is very important. I definitely think that we have this mindfulness, uh, trend that's a little bit Americanized right now and there's like a BS version of it.

But I think that video games are very helpful for the development of things like, uh, you know, fine motor skills and such. And, and I think all of it is important. You know, one of the things I teach people in wellness is moderation in moderation, you know, so we have to, we have to be moderate and we have to be moderate about being moderate.

[00:50:57] Mike Koelzer, Host: When do you know that you have. Because you're moving. I mean, you're going, and you got a lot going on in your mind. You've got a lot of projects. When do you know that you need to cut loose and can you, do you ever, I, I don't do a very good job of it. 

[00:51:10] Neal Smoller, PharmD: I know. So this is a good question because I was really bad at this before I would never let go.

I was, I, that was part of the reason I decided to close everything. I felt like on Christmas, I'm thinking about the store and what's going to happen. And I decided I don't want that anymore. So like, um, because of the wellness practice that I built up, that I'm trying to help people build up, I haven't done a single MTM.

I don't care what my pharmacy does. I just have it there as a service for the people of this community. I don't care anymore. Like, and so to have that liberation, I think is very important and that's what the wellness practice has allowed me to build. Now, again, I'm in Woodstock. So it might be a unique personality mix along with economics, but I.

Move to a better economic situation, um, and, and try to, and try to make it work or use your current situation. And you can, you can do something to offset the losses that are happening. So I think that, um, for me, I just got over a two year period where I was working practically every day. I had a day off every like 30 or 40 days, basically with federal holidays, it was horrible.

It was a very, very bad time, uh, for me. And I believe that. Um, I, I, like I tell my patients, I wasn't making important things important and resting and planning and thinking all of those things are important, but unfortunately when you're stuck in a broken system, uh, it, it can, it can drag you into this mess.

So, um, so now I'm in a great place. 

[00:52:39] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. Tell me what you mean. And I don't take this derogatory at all. Cause I think I know what you mean, but tell me what you're saying. When you say you don't care anymore about 

[00:52:48] Neal Smoller, PharmD: the pharmacy. Yeah. So I guess what I'm saying, you're right. I should have said it differently.

I, I 

[00:52:52] Mike Koelzer, Host: don't think so. I understand it, but go a little bit 

[00:52:54] Neal Smoller, PharmD: deeper on that. I know that I can't influence this change now, and that's not saying that I'm not trying, I'm supporting the PBM legislation. My guy was the guy that wrote the bill in New York, the PBM bill. Right. So, I was in his office. I was in Albany eight times, so I care, but I know that I.

can't really influence any of this stuff. This is not my fault. And there's nothing I can do. So I've let go of that, a weight. And then I've just said, I have to accept the fact that the numbers are going down. You know, I sold, I sold my pharmacy and Socrates for a big number. A lot of people are impressed with it.

And my buddy just sold recently and he got a much smaller number. And I know right now that number would be small. So it's going to be zero. So now it's like, okay, so now what am I going to do? I know what you 

[00:53:41] Mike Koelzer, Host: mean. You can only put so much energy into something 

[00:53:43] Neal Smoller, PharmD: when there's no return on it. Yeah. I think it's like, again, that Buddhist thought process where it's like, I can't really control anything.

All I can do is try some things and be curious about what happens. So with pharmacy, I can't change it. So it's either I can work myself up and spend all this energy and be unhealthy, you know, Contra to me. My advice to people is to stress out about stuff, or I can just let it go. So, and I have the luxury of being able to not really care because of what we do with wellness brands.

And so again, if I'm not saying that I want, I'm going to be able to teach people how to make a million bucks in this, you might be able to if you're aggressive enough, but I think. Take the pressure off of both, especially pharmacists and give them the confidence that if pharmacy gets destroyed tomorrow, you have to sell your pharmacy and get rid of everything that you have a future being an entrepreneur as a wellness expert, using your pharmacy degree.

And like, so I actually go into, uh, during first class that models what I would, what my real plan C would be. If my plan, you know, if my plan B wasn't to beat as guru guy, um, you know, uh, what my plan C would be, uh, as a pharmacist right now, like what would I be doing? What would I be gearing up for? And, and that's what we go over and like how to execute that.

So that way people know, and, and the conversations I've been having on Facebook with other owners, it's, that's what they want. They want to not feel like they're going to die. As soon as this pharmacy goes away and they're going to be broken, their family is going to be scrubbed 

[00:55:17] Mike Koelzer, Host: and all that stuff. Where are you in 10 

[00:55:19] Neal Smoller, PharmD: years?

In 10 years, I would hope that I would be a successful and respected, um, purveyor of the truth around the natural products industry, still getting paid to speak, uh, and educate people, uh, around wellness, but then also around the business of wellness. And, um, I think that would be a dream, you know, to be known as that dude and be able to kind of spread my message.

Right. That would be cool. Um, whether or not I have a practice, whether or not I'm selling like physical stuff, like that's a whole nother thing. Uh, 'cause you really can't predict that far out. I think if I can give you a good idea of what I'm doing in like three to six months, that would actually be a surprise.

And that's another thing is like, we have this idea of who you're going to be for the rest of your life. The economy doesn't work like that anymore. People, it does not. No one has to reinvent you. Yeah. You, you have, you don't have a 20 year plan anymore. You have a right now plan and then you have the ability to, again, pick yourself up and, and.

[00:56:22] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah, you mentioned Buddha. My goal is just to not look like Buddha. 

[00:56:27] Neal Smoller, PharmD: I just got back to the gym too, because as I share a lot, I love M and Ms. And I love eating, uh, crap. So I just started going back to the gym and I have a, I have to pay like a lot of money for a personal trainer because there's no accountability for me right now at this point in my life.

I can't just get up and go to the gym and actually workout hard. So I pay a trainer and now we're to a point where my strengths coming back, but I have to now slow my roll, but I'm gonna wait until after Thanksgiving here to, uh, to get back on the wagon, get back on it, the ham, 

[00:57:00] Mike Koelzer, Host: you know. Yeah. Right.

Exactly. Well, Neil, nice talking to you. I'm going 

[00:57:05] Neal Smoller, PharmD: to be watching. I appreciate it. I think that's, it's going to be, uh, an interesting time and at least if I can open a couple people's eyes to it, and you know, the first class is going to be the determinant and I'm going to make sure that I over-deliver for them.

And I make sure that they feel like they got a good value out of it. And then it's really up to them. It's really up to them to take the ball and run with it and, and, and kind of make something out of it. But I believe I'll be providing a high value for people as I do right now, I provide a ton of value for, for consumers.

So now I want to provide that for practitioners. So, and 

[00:57:38] Mike Koelzer, Host: I think one thing that you're able to offer people is hope, you know, a lot of hopes have been drained out of people's pharmacist's lives. And some people have successfully fought that, but I think it takes all of us to give each other hope through some of this bumpy time.

[00:57:53] Neal Smoller, PharmD: Yeah. I think that what I tell somebody right now, like I am kind of in the camp of independent pharmacy. Because of the economics and, and, you know, again, if Medicare for all passes tomorrow, that still doesn't mean that we're going to get paid for our services. So I think that there's a lot of us that are out there fighting.

So that way we can practice at the top of our license, like, you know, with the specialty services and such and changing our model. And I, and I hold out hope for that, but I've given up on that and on waiting for it. I'm not going to hold my breath. I believed also just like you can't blame the field goal kicker that, you know, missed the last kick at the end of the game, there were generations before us that frog this up.

You know, every, the, the thing I want everybody to know is that we can't do this alone enough of the I'm too smart to join a buying group. You know, my deal is better. Well, you know what? Your deal might be better, uh, by like 10%, but you're, you're literally out there on an island by yourself. So we need to join up.

We need to start working together under one banner. And I believe that banner is that pharmacists are valid. Yeah. If we can just shout that because that's, for every single practice, discipline, pharmacists are valuable. We're valuable in what we know and what we offer to society, whether it's independent or chain pharmacists that are getting overworked, whether it's a hospital pharmacist, that's, you know, whatever it is, we're valuable.

And everybody needs to know that. And we need to use that as the thing that we rally behind. 

[00:59:17] Mike Koelzer, Host: There's some independent pharmacies that are going to be successful, but I think that prescription filling under the PBM model is just getting in the way they might as well do the great things they're doing, but get the crap out of the way.

That's just slowing them down. You're looking at a population where the average death age now has gone down and heart disease is the number one killer by a landslide, the obesity problem and stuff. The problems have not gone away. Independent pharmacy is not going away like the buggy because something better like the car has come out.

It's gone away just because of corruption, but the problem still is. Yeah, 

[00:59:53] Neal Smoller, PharmD: we can, we can be independent pharmacist without having a physical store and we can lead in fixing these problems by pointing out what's going on by raising the bar, the natural products industry by, by providing a real holistic approach that isn't riddled with pseudoscience and nonsense, uh, and, and, and really kind of taking charge and helping people manage all of the craziness because we're moving towards an economy where there it's a very white glove asked situation and an independent pharmacist is perfectly positioned to succeed with 

[01:00:25] Mike Koelzer, Host: that.

There's a ton of products. There's a ton of information because in your hand, you've got more information than any pharmacy school could teach you. But I think what is not there is figuring it out. What to do with that information, figure out the problems, the intersecting problems, and that's where the expertise comes 

[01:00:45] Neal Smoller, PharmD: in.

Yep. And that's what we're teaching people, how to fuse the supplement science with the business and the algorithms of real practice situations to make a tangible, you can know, um, you can, you can put a bunch of supplements on your shelf, right. But they're not going to sell themselves. What are you gonna say?

When a customer comes in, you can learn all about supplements, but how do you know how to turn that into something that works? You can sell a ton of supplements. How are you going to make that business sustainable and be able to withstand Amazon and all the changes that are coming and your competitors?

So it's like, it's a fusion of all of those ideas like, okay, we need to know the products. We need to know the space. We need to have the expertise, but we need to build a business that's sustainable that doesn't have to do with another stupid commodity, but has to do with our expertise. Yeah.

That's 

[01:01:30] Mike Koelzer, Host: well put, thanks. The commodities are always going to surface, but we have to keep changing to stay ahead and be experts and not become a commodity ourselves, I suppose. 

[01:01:38] Neal Smoller, PharmD: Exactly. Right. Because we're on our way. Yeah. We're on 

[01:01:40] Mike Koelzer, Host: our way. Hey Neil. Really great talking to you. I appreciate 

[01:01:43] Neal Smoller, PharmD: it. I hope to come visit you again someday.

Please do. All right. Thanks Neil. Thank you.