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Chris Schiller, PharmD, owns four pharmacies in Oklahoma. Listen as he discusses how one person can make a political impact.
Transcript Disclaimer: This transcript is generated using speech-to-text technology and is intended to capture the essence of the conversation. However, please note that it may contain multiple spelling errors and inaccuracies. It should not be relied upon as an exact or comprehensive record of the discussion.
[00:00:15] Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, hello, Chris.
[00:00:16] Chris Schiller, PharmD: Hey Mike, how's it going? It's going well.
[00:00:18] Mike Koelzer, Host: Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me, Chris, for the listeners that haven't come across you online. Tell our listeners who you are. And what's going on. Why are we
[00:00:27] Chris Schiller, PharmD: talking? Uh, my name is Chris Schiller. Uh, my wife and I have four pharmacies in Muskogee in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
I am currently serving as the president elect of the Oklahoma pharmacist association. And, um, I'll be going in as president here. Um, actually, I don't know when that's a funny thing because of COVID, we've kind of changed our meeting, our annual meeting. So I don't know when that will happen, but it should happen in the next month or.
When was it supposed to be? Our annual convention was late June or early
[00:00:57] Mike Koelzer, Host: July. I think if they ever got me into president and elect, they'd have to invent a COVID or something. If there wasn't one, they'd keep . They just keep trying to put me on. I, I wonder
[00:01:07] Chris Schiller, PharmD: if that's what's happened now to me, I've actually heard
[00:01:10] Mike Koelzer, Host: of COVID so I think you're good.
I think you're good. . You've got four pharmacies. Why are you about to be president of your state association? You're not. Old as I am, but you're getting to the point where you're like, you know, I've got four stores, the boys are getting older, my wife and I can start taking some trips and those kinds of things.
And all of a sudden you're going to be the president of arguably one of the most active. Associations in the
[00:01:45] Chris Schiller, PharmD: country. We're very fortunate and very blessed with the four stores. Um, my wife's, um, parents owned the stores before we took over about four and a half years ago. Um, I've worked in pharmacy for 23 years.
Now started out as a delivery driver, you know, then pharmacists took over, you know, ran and then now we, we operate the stores. Well, it was about three, two and a half, three years ago. And I got, you know, we're working hard in the stores and I'll be honest with you. I've lost a little bit of my passion. For pharmacy.
I love being a pharmacist. I love the relationships, but with the PBMs just on and on and just us just getting beat up left. And right when I was younger, I would go to a conference and that old guy would stand up there and say, either, get into politics or get outta pharmacy. Right. My, as, as a young, you know, as a young pharmacist, like, well, you don't know, I can fill a ton of prescriptions.
You know, we are so busy. I always could. Feel whatever. Well, we got to the point and we're getting to that point every day, that the more you feel, the more you lose. And, and so I'm like, well, you know, I've got, I'd, I've kind of lost my passion for pharmacy a little bit. So I'm like, well, let me see if there's something else that, you know, I could start to do.
So I thought, well, Nobody's really working to rate PBMs to improve our law or actually I, people are working. I just wasn't participating in our, you weren't aware of it. Yeah. In our, in our pharmacist association. So I got invited to be on, um, a committee for the, um, But pharmacy board, uh, to, to study one thing and give our opinion on, um, compliance packaging or whatever.
So I got that and man, that really just got me going, it got me in like, I need to be involved. I need to do stuff. I don't work as a pharmacist anymore. I haven't in, in quite a long time. I'll fill in a day or two every once in a while. And so I'm like, I've got time. I can do this. Um, less enough that I could afford to, you know, to go to Oklahoma city a lot and be involved.
And so if I've gotta get after this, so I, I quickly joined op I was already a member, but I actually started attending stuff. I. Pretty immediately added to the executive board. That was about two and a half years ago. We had a situation where our current vice president had to step away. And then I got nominated to take that spot.
And then after that it was president elect and then this year, sometime I'll be president. But when I went in, we just hit the ground. I created a Facebook page just for Oklahoma pharmacists. We went into the 2019 session, um, at the capital, just full force. We had replaced our lobbyist that we had hired from the.
For the previous years we thought we weren't getting any sort of representation. We replaced our lobbyist. We hit the ground running me and, um, three or four others, um, guys really. Really took off with it. We did. It's our, it's our bill house, bill 26 32, which is a pretty big deal. It was one of the most, and I think still is the most aggressive PBM regulation bills that passed a state.
Of course, just like the other bills that all the other states PCMA has sued our state. the state agreed to a stay until the Rutledge case at, at SCOTUS is heard, you know, the Supreme court is heard. And so the St stay means, you know, status quo. Everyone remains the same, You know, PBMs don't do anything different pharmacy don't do anything different will be fine.
Well, then we get a contract. Um, that's just horrible from our, our, one of our local or biggest insurance companies in the state. They subcontracted to another PBM to do their negotiations. which makes no sense. And it was way under our cost. And it was a ridiculous challenge.
[00:05:25] Mike Koelzer, Host: This was in the middle of what was supposed to be a
[00:05:28] Chris Schiller, PharmD: state.
They violated the state. So we met with our Oklahoma attorney general and told him, you know, uh, without violating any contractor, anything, you know, what was going on, what was happening. And when he was, he was pretty upset about it, he was pretty fired up. They violated the stay as far as his opinion was.
Changing the rules of what, um, they were supposed to. So he lifts the stay. And so, the PCMA had 21 days, whatever. So that 21 days passed the course on day 21, they filed for an emergency injunction. Pharmacists stepped up. We, we did, we formed a legal defense fund. Um, I mean, in a couple days we brought in a lot of, uh, you know, not as much money as the PBS, but a whole lot of money for, for, for independent pharmacies.
We have hired the law group. That's supported by a lot of the states around to assist our states in defending that law. I got to go to the actual hearing, even though it was a remote hearing, they did it like over zoom. I, but I actually, there were three of us that actually got to go and sit in the C.
For the preliminary injunction and heard that argument. Well, that was pretty exciting of why it would be so harmful if it was enforced now and how the excuse of COVID was used as we can't do this because of co I mean, it was just crazy. And. It's about eight days later, the judge, uh, released his findings and denied them their injunction.
So that's awesome for us because now that law is actually enforceable, he denied it to the, to the certain extent that he said that Arissa did not preclude any part of our law. And we were very strategic in our law. We did not. We did not, um, regulate insurance companies. We regulated PBM specifically, because it's the insurance company that's covered by Arissa.
That's my understanding. I'm not a lawyer. Um, and so therefore. We regulated the PBM specifically and named the PBM specifically in our law. So therefore RSA would not, um, overrule anything that we came up with. He even, um, ruled that our law would cover a lot of Medicare part D things, except for a couple things like the access standard, cuz Medicare part D already has that, which ours are identical to that.
And the fact that they can advertise. So an insurance company, you know, star ratings, if. High, when they can advertise stuff like that. Because we made it in our law that you can't put the name of a pharmacy on an insurance card, unless you put all the pharmacies as you know where I'm going with that. Um, unless you put all the pharmacies that are contracted.
Um, so we, our law covers a lot of different things. You know, obviously the Arkansas law is great. Ours includes a lot of that. Plus a lot of. Things,
[00:08:07] Mike Koelzer, Host: they must have been before you a little bit.
[00:08:09] Chris Schiller, PharmD: Right? They were, they, I, I think they were a good solid year to year and a half before us because they passed a law.
If I remember right in a special session and then they had to come back because the PBMs just bypassed everything in that special. This is my understanding and I don't know, a hundred percent. And then they had to come back again the next year and, and redo it too, and so they passed it again. So I think we were good.
Year to a half behind them, but they got started quite a bit in front of us.
[00:08:40] Mike Koelzer, Host: Did you find the stuff that you got back from the PBMs, did they think they were like. King of the hill or, or did it seem to be respectful even more so than you'd see in a pharmacy?
[00:08:58] Chris Schiller, PharmD: Well, so what we have to remember is, as pharmacy pharmacists and pharmacy owners, we see PBMs in one light.
We see what they do, businesses that pay for insurance, see them in another light. They think that they're saving all kinds of money as far as the arguments actually are, in court. It was pretty, you know, I, I'm a, I'm a fairly emotional guy, you know? And so when I agree with something, I'm shaking my head.
Yes. And when I disagree with something, you know, I'm like, I don't, I don't know if, how I'm supposed to act in here, but some of the stuff was, was laughable what they were saying, how they. How they've saved so much money, how much this is gonna increase cost, you know, and they do a great job. I mean, they have all the money, not all the money in the world, but they have a lot of money and they do a great job of PR. They do a great job of just hanging on to what they have.
Um, so whenever you know, you've got, you know, a little always say, you know, I'm just a pharmacist from Muskogee. You know, and, and had a couple buddies with me, you know, were just local pharmacists going against these big companies that for years have built up their reputation and all this in the good way, because we see 'em in the bad way, but the other people see 'em in the good way, but their, their charts and everything.
And they go, they've gone through this and almost every state or have had to fight this same fight in almost every state. So they've had their practice, but their charts and their explanations and all that to us, they're laughable. But to the, the, the judge I'll be honest. I felt like we were gonna win just from his questioning of both sides.
Uh, he knew a lot about it. I mean, he knew a whole lot about it. He had educated himself on it, which I'm thankful for. And I obviously, I still think even emotionally, so my thing was after we left, I'm like, emotionally, I think he's on our side. I don't know if he is the law or, you know, I don't know if the law is or not, but apparently it was cuz that's how he ruled, you know, who was the biggest fighter?
PCMA is the biggest fighter against our law house, bill 26 32 in the state of Oklahoma, the Oklahoma state chamber of commerce. Really? So to me as a local guy, right? I can, I'm a member of our state chamber of commerce. I can go down there anytime. You know, I'm really my whole life in Muskogee. Been involved in that.
We had to fight, so to me, the state chamber would mean local business, right? That is not what it means. Um, because these big businesses come in and they'll join, you know, they'll pay the $20,000 membership a year. And so they, I mean, I don't blame the chamber cuz they have to make their money too, but that was the biggest thing.
So. The way that PCMA or the PBMs use the chamber is to get to all those big companies. So in Oklahoma, we have like Chesapeake and we have a hobby lobby and, and, um, I think quick trips and different things like that. So what they would, what they do P PBMs do a great job is convincing the hobby lobby that if this law passes, your costs are gonna go way up because.
The PDMs save you so much money. And so what we did to battle that because the state chamber swings a pretty big stick at the, at the, um, at the capital and it does in every state I'm sure. But what we did to battle that is we had some great, um, talented owners from across the state that made us a little graphic that showed the state of Oklahoma.
And for every local chamber that we got to support us and to send a letter into the state chamber, whatever we put that on our map. And so our map was just, just full of local chambers, supporting their local business to help, you know, counteract our legislators, um, against the state chamber. So PBMs do a great job of selling.
story or what they do to, um, to big businesses.
[00:12:39] Mike Koelzer, Host: Are you guys able to fight with actual people? Documentation or is that breaking contracts? If you say judge I'm Chris and I have four pharmacies and look how they screw this, you, you can't do that really without breaking their contract. Right. So you have to give ex you have to give examples, but then they're kinda watered down.
Is that
[00:13:04] Chris Schiller, PharmD: right? Yeah. And, and, and so like we're in a, we're in an awkward spot because the law just, you know, a couple weeks ago, got to where we can be enforced. Well, the O the office that can enforce that law is our Oklahoma insurance commissioner and the insurance department. Well, our insurance commissioner's office, as you gotta think, that's a big learning curve.
All of a sudden you, they've never looked at PBMs. I mean, never looked at 'em and didn't even think they were responsible for regulating PBMs. And then all of a sudden they've gotta regulate 'em. So they've hired a PBM specialist. Someone who's worked in independent pharmacy before, and someone who's worked for insurance before.
And so this whole time I've had our pharmacist from across the state sending in violations and complaints, even before it was enforceable. I'm like, if I have an employee, for example, I have an employee that's on their, her parents. Insurance. They force her to go to a chain pharmacy and they force her to use a mail order for her specialty medication.
Well, that violates our law. You can't force someone to go to a certain place. You can't change their company. If they go to one place or the other, and you can't force someone to go to specialty and you have to pay us as much as you pay anybody else. And that is in our law. Now getting that actually to where I call that certain PBM and say, Hey, you're violating our.
They'll be like, I'm sorry. We really don't know much about that yet. You know, we don't know anything about it. So therefore this is. Well, we've gotta get our insurance department to, to enforce those violations until we actually see any real change. So we haven't actually seen any real
[00:14:36] Mike Koelzer, Host: change. Can they do the opposite too?
Can they say, Hey Chris, we found out your pharmacy was doing this and you say, Well, yeah, but the new law does this and they're like, well, okay. But we'll see that happen in three years. In the meantime, you're breaking the contract that you signed. And so we're gonna drop you.
[00:14:54] Chris Schiller, PharmD: It's a scary thing to be out in front of this.
I mean, you know, because literally, I mean, they turn off, I turn off three contracts and I 'm done for right. You know, and this is our livelihood. Um, but it is a scary thing. But I think it has to be done. I mean, we just couldn't continue any longer. I thought if nobody else is gonna do it, I've gotta at least, you know, try to get something done.
And so we've been sending in complaints. We've gotta get at some point, those contracts that we've signed are gonna be illegal in Oklahoma because of all the stuff that they put in there, they're gonna be in violation of our law. Now, I don't know how long that will take the law is still in litigation.
So therefore, I mean, they got the preliminary injunction denied, but now they're gonna appeal to the 10th. Well, the 10th circuit has not heard of PBM law yet. They have not heard one yet, um, to my knowledge. And so therefore we'll see what the 10th circuit says, um, with that. And then it actually has to come back to Oklahoma to be heard in the actual case, not just the injunction, but the actual case to be heard, but, you know, I, I'm really proud of the, of the, what we've done.
The law we passed. I'm really proud that it's enforceable and that we've, you know, least I, I call that a big victory. Prevent the preliminary injunction. Obviously we're looking at the Rutledge, you know, case and, you know, hope, you know, I wish we got, would've got to see that in April heard, but you know, hopefully this fall, it gets heard, you know, who knows which way it will go.
Hopefully it goes the pharmacy's way. Um, and, and then we can build on that. If it goes the other way, there's still lots of things in our law that are a lot different than Arkansas's that I'm hopeful for that we may be able
[00:16:29] Mike Koelzer, Host: to get done. Is there a way for. All the states to say, for example, Oklahoma and Arkansas and Ohio and these different ones, everybody gets together.
We're gonna have this federal law or does it always start with the state? By state. Cause I know that Trump has thrown the PBM things, could something like this, just be a federal thing.
[00:16:56] Chris Schiller, PharmD: The PBMs have infiltrated so much into senators and representatives and into the government that, like, I can't even get my own lo my own us representative of my district.
To do anything against PBMs. And that's embarrassing for me, cuz I've got a, we've got a lot of pools in Oklahoma and I can't get 'em. I can't get 'em to vote or sign on any letter vote anyway. Um, you know, and so they've done such a good job of donating to their campaigns and, and keeping them going that that's so hard to break into versus a state level, a state level.
You know, if, if you know, um, K K pharmacy. You know, you've seen so many hundreds of people, um, a day coming in. When you call your local legisla legislator, they listen
[00:17:41] Mike Koelzer, Host: to you. They might know the customers. Number one, number two, they know the pharmacy. And number three, the lobbyists haven't greased their pockets because they're only so concerned about someone from district 75 or six when grand rapids, they're gonna spend time on the 50, in the 400 in, in Washington,
[00:17:59] Chris Schiller, PharmD: if Mike's mad at the local state rep or the local state.
That local state rep and that local state Senate, um, has a good chance of not getting reelected. Those PBMs don't vote in their local district. Um, like, like your, you and your employees and your family and your patients do. Yeah. And so that's where we have a whole lot of leverage. Um, cuz we'll never have much money, but we have a whole lot of leverage cuz we have votes, um, on the state level.
Yeah. Granted we have federal votes, but it's not, it's not near as impactful. It's a little too distant. That's my opinion.
[00:18:28] Mike Koelzer, Host: The stuff you're talking about, I'm sure happens in a lot of industries. And you mentioned money. Is that just. A check to the guy for his campaign, or do they take him out for dinner and do this and stuff?
How friendly do these companies get with these
[00:18:44] Chris Schiller, PharmD: representatives? I think it's all the above, it's dinners. It's probably trips, hunting trips. I don't know. I, I, I hear a lot of different things, you know, let's say that, um, that company, that, that lobbyist works for whatever. They'll write a check to their campaign.
But also, um, you know, you can only max, you can only write a check for so much for someone's campaign, but they'll also write a Chan, a check to a pack, a political action committee. Okay. That supports that, that campaign. They'll also, from my understanding, write a check, um, towards a committee. So like the, um, the ways and means committee.
And I'm not saying that I'm just saying rules, judicial, whatever committee. Um, they can write a check to that committee and that committee can divvy up money to whatever one, whatever representative, um, that they want to. So I, I, I'm not an expert on that. I see what kind of goes on locally at the state, which is, you know, small donations or contributions, sorry.
And then, you know, small dinners and stuff.
[00:19:44] Mike Koelzer, Host: Let's say a politician is getting winded and dined by some lobbyist. Do they get personal gains for that or just political gains? I mean, do they get money like in their bank account
[00:19:55] Chris Schiller, PharmD: for their personal bank account? Um, no. No. Uh, no. Now a lot of politicians and one thing we've experienced here and not so much just politicians, but a lot of government appointed or, or people will.
Will have a deal when their career ends or they stop running for office, they go work for one of those companies or go, this is public knowledge that I'm aware of. We had an Oklahoma government employee that worked for the Oklahoma, um, healthcare plan that is for our, our teachers are all our state employees.
and, um, this individual was a, was a pharmacist as a pharmacist and helped run the pharmacy. Part of, of the health of the health plan, um, was strongly against, um, our law actually helped write the, um, uh, you know, were they do to see how much this is gonna cost them. You know, they'll do a thing to see how much it's gonna cost a state.
And they said something like 240 million a year, which was ridiculous and helped write that, give it, you know, give that we had to fight that. We, we, again, we went unanimous, so we beat, we beat it anyway, that person, after that session is over, went and went to go work for a PBM. Is that right? And so I, I, you know, maybe it was just convenience.
Uh, maybe it was a coincidence, but it was just, uh, it was, uh, you know, that, that was a good, um, experience in, I guess, politics more than
[00:21:21] Mike Koelzer, Host: likely it's gonna be something like, Hey Bob, we're gonna put a good word in for you to HR when you're done with this and yeah. That's right. That kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.
That's really something. What got you to sign up for that first committee? The state, cause I know you said you were kind of feeling out of it and not real enthused in that you said that you were on this committee and then the, the state wanted you more involved. How did you actually think of getting on that first committee?
What prompted you to either walk in there or pick up the phone or do something to get on that first committee?
[00:21:59] Chris Schiller, PharmD: Well, excellent question. So, you know, I, as I said, I'd kind of lost my passion for pharmacy. I was looking to see what, not that I'm quitting pharmacy, but what my next goal is, I'm a very goal oriented person.
And I, I, I like to achieve, I like to accomplish and I'm thinking well, so I kind of started kicking around the idea of maybe going into politics a little bit. I actually got an email from the state board, which I think they sent it out to. I think every registered pharmacist that if you wanted to serve on it was called the co-mingling and automation committee.
And so what they were doing is putting pharmacists from different styles of types of pharmacies together to form rules for co-mingling. So compliance, packaging, you know, the. The rapid pack that, you know, puts all your medicine into one pack that you take in the morning. Well, we needed rules, to make sure it's labeled right.
Make sure you know that everybody's the, and then also automation once we got in that session, I don't know. I just felt really engaged. I felt really like, man, I could, I can make a difference here.
[00:22:56] Mike Koelzer, Host: Two questions, one. Would you like to be president of the United
[00:23:01] Chris Schiller, PharmD: States? um, um, you know, I gotta, that's a, that's a, that's a funny question.
So we, uh, before, uh, let's see, it was in Sunday school before COVID of course they actually asked a question. What. You could, if you could do anything and not fail, not fail at it, what would it be? And I put, run for president because I thought, you know, and they're like, why would you wanna do I'm like, are you kidding?
Right? I mean, yes, I would. Now is that a goal of mine? No, I, no. I actually would like to be a U.S. Congressman. Um, but, um, but yes, I mean, I'm. Yes, I think that would be great. So here's my
[00:23:36] Mike Koelzer, Host: follow up question. If you could not tell anybody that you were the president, let's say you had to have a mask on, and let's say that none of your family knew you were the president and you just came home like on the weekends and you were just Chris.
Mm-hmm would you still like to be the president then, or is it part of it? The popularity and so on. Here's what I'm getting at. I always thought years ago that I'd like to be in politics, but I realized it was just to try to be known or try to be famous or try to be. appreciated or whatever. And I didn't know a damn thing about what I wanted to accomplish.
It was just like a glory thing, but I remember I asked someone one time and they said, I just want to be the county commissioner. That's where I can really make my impact. And this and that with that in mind, what would you be a federal house that would be cool for you? That's where you could really make an impact?
[00:24:31] Chris Schiller, PharmD: I think
And that's, that's embarrassing to me. I mean, it's embarrassing to me that we're not taking care of our, of our. community Better. Um, there are lots of things. We really struggle. You know, pharmacy obviously struggles. Um, our rural hospitals are really struggling. We've got the cattlemen and the ranchers right now.
So I don't know if anybody's talked to you about the meat industry being basically turned into pharma, the pharmacy industry. So you've got three big meat Packers. Okay. That literally is putting out a bus. They put out a business, all the mom and pop meat manufactures with the help of the government and regulation.
And literally they've driven the price of beef. Um, as far as paying, paying the farmers and the ranchers, but up for us, the consumer and those middle meat Packers are making all the money. So that oil, you know, oil, we do Oklahoma, obviously a lot of oil and gas. We really, I feel like we have no representation or we're very
[00:25:45] Mike Koelzer, Host: underrepresented.
What sounds kind of cool about that to me is that you have the handle on, and I guess this is. Politicians are supposed to do, at least at that level, they're supposed to have the handle actually on individuals in their district or, you know, and then also have a federal voice basically,
[00:26:05] Chris Schiller, PharmD: right? Yeah. I mean, cuz they're representing, you know, the, the constituents, the citizens of the United States and then specifically their, their district and the
[00:26:12] Mike Koelzer, Host: The difference between being that and a state representative for the state is your.
Maybe not dealing with enormous laws or, or not enough power or
[00:26:21] Chris Schiller, PharmD: it's state issues. So it's, you have a smaller district. Yeah. And then you're dealing with state issues at the state capital and not, not in
[00:26:28] Mike Koelzer, Host: DC, you're not getting as much efficiency for your punch.
[00:26:31] Chris Schiller, PharmD: Yes. The states are the states. Um, and we're all separate, but the federal government, I mean, overseas, everything,
[00:26:37] Mike Koelzer, Host: you can change it for the whole us.
That's right. Why is that? And not a Senator. I, I think
[00:26:42] Chris Schiller, PharmD: because I live in the, the, the largest city in. Congressional district. I have a much better chance of winning that than a Senator. Everybody in the whole state gets to vote for the Senator. So every state has two and, and there everyone in the whole, it's a statewide election.
Um, most of ours come from either Oklahoma city or Tulsa. Um, which are the biggest cities? And so they're gonna have more than that, that plugin or whatever. Um, so I that's, that's why I think that the house of representatives would be a better, a better fit for me. I'm not saying I wouldn't want to in the future run for Senate, but I think the step to that would be through the house of representatives.
Yeah. There's
[00:27:21] Mike Koelzer, Host: nothing you dislike about the Senate. It would just be that you'd step to get there. But if someone said you're gonna be a Senator, you wouldn't like that any worse than being in the Congress.
[00:27:33] Chris Schiller, PharmD: I think at some point you would, you would prefer that because there's a hundred, right? It's the it's, it's, you've taken 400 and I don't, I don't know, 4 35 now you've your vote is one out of every, what?
[00:27:59] Mike Koelzer, Host: At what level did the smear campaign start? Were you in a smear campaign to win the, uh, president elect of the farm?
you know, I was thinking, Chris, you gotta remember that I'm from the city of Gerald Ford. So when you were talking about the vice president of the association not being there and that's like bureau ANU for me, you got Gerald Ford written all over your face? No, it
[00:28:20] Chris Schiller, PharmD: was actually, I was bra I was actually pretty, I, I, I got, let's just say I got fast tracked through.
Um, and I think that was because of my drive and what I was wanting to accomplish. Um, and it was literally my second or third executive council meeting of representing my district that, all of a sudden the vice president wasn't there anymore and, and had some issues. And then, I got nominated.
Yeah, that's cool. Okay. Sure. You know, and, and then that puts me in a commitment for. Vice president, president elect president and then past president. So it puts me in a four year commitment with O PHA, um, to, to serve
[00:28:54] Mike Koelzer, Host: through. Let's say that you ended up as a Congressman. What would the next step have to be after your presidency at the pharmacy association?
Would you first run for a state seat somewhere?
[00:29:06] Chris Schiller, PharmD: I don't think so. I don't, I don't think, um, I think that works for some people in politics, but I'd like to think that I would, and it all depends on the political wins. Right. So, I mean, I,
[00:29:16] Mike Koelzer, Host: we know that Trump didn't hold anything, you know,
[00:29:17] Chris Schiller, PharmD: so that's right.
And, and, and, um, uh, if I had his bank accounts and, and, you know, in his fame, I guess I could, I could do that. Right. Yeah. But, um, it all depends on the political wins, how they flow. It all depends on if the incumbent decides he's not gonna run or, or does something else. Um, it all depends if there's. Uh, you know, a con uh, you know, a controversy or, or something's found out.
So I don't know. I don't know. So I, I've kind of, I've delved into a few different things. So obviously we've got the four stores, which my wife does a wonderful job at, uh, at really the, a lot of the day to day stuff. Um, and I've kind of, you know, I don't really work as a pharmacist. I've, I've, I'm into the O PHA this year, and I didn't have to spend as much time at the capital because of COVID.
But like last year we were at the capital. Three days a week. So I was driving to Oklahoma city three days a week, but it's impactful for you to be there. I mean, it really makes a difference. Um, so that, so I don't know what my next step will be. And it all depends. You know, if, if, if, um, If the opportunity there to run in, in 20, 22, well, maybe I'll do it.
If it's not there I, 20, 24, 20, 26, you know, whatever, whatever I can make, the biggest impact, you know, my kids, you know, one's almost outta high school and then one's kind of gonna be starting high school. I don't wanna miss it. You know, I will, because I think I can make that big of a difference. But, um, if, if the opportunity isn't there, I'll wait.
Um, until they're, you know, they're outta school. I don't wanna Miss. Ball games ever. You know, I can't imagine your schedule trying to get to all your kids' stuff, but, but, uh, I don't wanna miss if I, if I don't have to. And the
[00:30:52] Mike Koelzer, Host: The thing is though, you have a boatload of time when you look at our two. Guys running for presidency 70 some, and it's remarkable.
[00:31:03] Chris Schiller, PharmD: Normally that's when people are taking it easy, you know, that are retiring. And so they're, they're at the end of their career. So their career's over and it's not that they're so it's, they're kind of just seen as you know, well, we're just gonna retire. We're gonna travel. We're gonna do whatever. But now they're taking on the biggest, trying to take on the biggest thing.
You know, I would assume that probably the most responsible ability thing that there is as far as offices anyway, even to have
[00:31:28] Mike Koelzer, Host: that kind of energy. I mean, those guys are just like pound in it. It's so incredible. I want to tell the listeners too, that when you're in your. Political life here. You're bringing quite a few skills to the table because you've also done a vitamin line.
Right. You know, along
[00:31:47] Chris Schiller, PharmD: with that, losing my passion for pharmacy, getting into, you know, politics and, and, and associations. I went to a, let's see, we do compounding at, at three of our four stores. And I went to a PCCA conference about two and a half years ago and, and it's a hormone conference and I go, I go almost every year to one and this one talked a lot about gut health and, and, and I thought, well, you know, I'm a good pharmacist.
You know, I recommend it to patients. Get an antibiotic that they eat some yogurt, you know, and stuff like that. Or I recommend the cheap probiotic over the counter. Well, I realized pretty quickly that I'm not a very good pharmacist when it comes to probiotics. And so when I got home, I started to look for a probiotic that had enough CFUs to make a difference that was affordable for my Muskogee area.
People. And I, either I found stuff that was, you know, $5 and not worth the $5. Right. Or I found stuff that was $50 or $60 that no one could buy, and very few people could buy. Yeah. Right. And, and so what I thought, well, I wonder how much it would cost if I came up with my own formula and I had it manufactured.
And so. I did. And I, I, it wasn't cheap. It wasn't cheap at all. I was just hoping that it would work out. Yeah. And we would sell it cause we didn't sell a whole, whole bunch of Probios before and it did, it worked out great. Um, and so I developed a company called Encapsulations and it's Encapsulations with a K and, and my first product was Probio probiotic 30.
And we made a 30 count bottle and, and then we also made a 10 count bottle. And the reason the 30 count bottle retails for $28. Um, you get to double your money, so you pay 14, you get to sell it for 28, you make 14 bucks. So that's a pretty good markup on a, on an antibiotic that you may have got paid 98 cents to.
Right. Exactly. Right. Um, and then for patients, one of my pharmacists was really worried about Muskogee. Uh, one of our stores, people being able to afford 28 cuz $28 is $28. And it depends on where you're. So we made a 10 count bottle. That again, you get to double your money, but it sells for 1299 cost six 50 sells for 1299.
We sell out of every 10 bottles, we sell eight or nine 30 counts. We hardly sell any of the tens, which is odd, but it's just a perception. And so between our four stores, we sell about a hundred bottles of probiotic, 30 to 30 count a month, which is impactful. I mean, that's money. That's a lot of money that's cash that we're not depending on a PBM.
We're not waiting for a payment. And so what I did is I would, I would took that and then I would do another product and another product. So I do have, uh, about 15 products, digestive enzymes, uh, vitamin D 5,000, 10,000. Um, we, we keep our, our probiotic in a cooler right there by the, our little mini cooler right there by the, the.
The pharmacy counter. And we talked to every patient, that's getting an antibiotic, a stomach medicine about that. And so last November-ish I started selling, I thought, well, I wonder if this could help other independents, cuz you're tired making $8 on something you paid $22 for, you know, and your stomach for $30.
So I went to a few of my friends and they're like, well, we'll give it a try. And they've had a really good success. And so since November, we're now at 44. Independence. And I'm only gonna sell the independence. No kidding. 44 independence in four different states. And I get about five reorders a week, which is great.
You know, that means they're selling it. I've got a guy in Georgia. Who literally sells the 10 count, which is odd. He sells the 10 count. Um, he, he started about two months ago and he's reordered, let's see his last reorder was 75 of 'em and he just reordered a hundred of them 50, and then he changed it to a hundred bottles.
So he's made it a competition at his store, um, to see, you know, how many they can sell. And then he is rewarding his employees. So what I'm trying to do is, not turn this into a, I'm gonna sell you this. You're gonna make money off of it, you know, but it's something that's good for your patients. You never feel bad selling it because these products are really good for your patients.
You're gonna make a little cash off of it, but I'm trying to turn it into a, a, a program, not just, Hey, Buy these for me and go sell. Gotcha. I'm trying to turn it into a support program where we provide you with, um, social media posts that are already pre-done with your logo, your pharmacy's logo on it, that you can advertise.
Uh, we provide you with some training videos. I'll tell you how I sell 'em. I'm gonna get Ben in Georgia. Who's selling the 10 count, like crazy. I'm gonna get him to do a testimonial to teach you how to sell them, because you know, if you're selling a few UHIN for example, You're selling it for about 30 bucks.
It costs you 22. You're making eight bucks and you're not selling very many cuz you're not working at it. Right. But if you work at it, you actually will sell a lot. So we've got quite a few things. Thanks for bringing it up, Mike, I appreciate it because it's something that I'm really passionate about. If you can't tell, um, it's been a lot of fun.
I've got to go to, uh, a lot of different independent pharmacies. So pre COVID, I would just go to the stores and I would talk to the pharmacist. I'd help them get set up. During COVID, it's basically been done over, you know, through, um, the internet and then just delivery. But I can't wait to get back out cuz it's a lot of fun going to other independence and seeing what they're doing, knowing
[00:36:58] Mike Koelzer, Host: what you know now about.
Your life. I know you love your children and your wife. In fact, I saw your thing on Facebook. I was, I gotta stalk my guess a little bit beforehand. I saw that on Facebook and you were giving a shout out to your wife, Becky for your 20 years of it was like 20,
[00:37:22] Chris Schiller, PharmD: 21st anniversary,
[00:37:23] Mike Koelzer, Host: 21st anniversary. And I was about to get my Kleenex out and cry because you said she was.
Consistent. And I thought it was gonna be that she, you know, left a little, uh, Hershey kiss on your pillow or something like that, but then you leaned over and you, uh, shut off her hair. Straighten
[00:37:40] Chris Schiller, PharmD: her. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I, what I did is I appreciate how consistent she is. She is. And for every day for the last 21 years, She's given them the opportunity to do this.
So, I turned off her straightener. I had done previous videos, yeah. Of, of the straightener of, of how to, of how to turn off a straightener, uh, because apparently it's pretty difficult. Um, and I got a good response
[00:38:05] Mike Koelzer, Host: out of that too. I always turn my wife's off. But then I get in trouble for turning it off because it's like, I was gonna go up there and, and do this till I'm like Margaret we're like, we're like three minutes late already to leave for the concert.
You're telling me you were gonna still go upstairs and use that thing. Yeah. I was gonna go up and do this or that. I'm like, yeah, you were not so
[00:38:28] Chris Schiller, PharmD: Well, Becky's usually already gone. Um, on Sunday. She'll get up before me and she'll go. And, and then she'll text me sometimes, Hey, check my straight. I mean, I do it every day.
but, she'll text me sometimes to do it. Uh, which is a lot of fun. So yeah, that, that was, that's a lot of fun to do. Let's go back
[00:38:46] Mike Koelzer, Host: 10 years. We know you're not gonna change your marriage, your children, any of that kind of stuff. And when everybody would say, well, I would buy the winning lottery ticket or something, but if you could take a different direction from 10 years ago, Knowing what you know now and so on.
Would you have done anything different? Would you have been in politics earlier? Would you have gone into this sale earlier with the vitamins? Would you not be in pharmacy? Would you have done something else? And I know this is just fictitious. We're not gonna go back, but would you. Done much differently. I know you're good where you are.
You're happy where you are, but would you have done anything remarkably different?
[00:39:32] Chris Schiller, PharmD: Um, I, you know, that's a great, it's a great question. And, um, we, um, Actually. So let me come back to that just real quick. Yeah. We ask all of the people that we interview for, for jobs at the pharmacy, what their dream job would be.
You know, if education didn't matter location or money, what your dream job would be. And, and, and so as we ask people that I think about that all the time, so I would prefer this with what my dream job would be to work on an island as a charter boat. Captain is what I would like to do. Because that would be a lot of fun.
Right. Yeah. Okay. But now back. Seminal years ago, uh, you know, 10 years ago we had just opened the first Tulsa store, which my in-laws were great at letting me do that. They say, okay, here we picked a great spot. Chris did. And we had just opened, you know, they spent a whole lot of money. We got a beautiful looking store, freestanding, I'm thinking we're just gonna kill it.
We went up there and we went to the market. We did everything. First day, we filled seven prescriptions. I thought, oh my gosh, I've ruined the whole family. Right. And anyway, so within a month we were doing a, I mean, it's great. I, so I wouldn't change anything like that. One thing I would change. And you brought both of them up.
I would probably do the Encapsulations earlier. I would start that a lot earlier, cuz I think it makes a big difference. Mm-hmm in our businesses and in others now you would've
[00:40:47] Mike Koelzer, Host: done it. But back then, uh, you know, Amazon was hardly even going back then. So, you
[00:40:52] Chris Schiller, PharmD: Now, we didn't need very many niches.
Then, like we need now, even though I feel like we were in all of 'em, you know, we compounded, we delivered, we did everything. I probably would've started being more involved in my pharmacy association earlier. Yeah. I would have probably leaned more towards politics a little earlier. Yeah. But no, I don't think there's anything.
I would change Dr. Drastically. I loved opening that store. And then four years later we opened another store and I loved that challenge. Yeah. You. Of course, seven prescriptions, I'm thinking, oh my gosh. Yeah, I'm getting kicked out of the family. Right. But, then I love that challenge of getting that store profitable.
Yeah. And then starting again at another store and then getting that store profitable. I loved that. Um, I just kind of, I think I could have done it. I guess to answer your question, I think I would've rather worked more on the business than in the business, cuz I was the pharmacist seven days a week, all day long for a long time.
And I wish that I could have changed that just a little bit. Not a whole lot, but, but just a little bit. Yeah, just a little.
[00:41:55] Mike Koelzer, Host: And then the problem with that though is, you know, maybe you would've had time to work on something that would. Been the wrong direction. ,
[00:42:05] Chris Schiller, PharmD: you know what I mean? And the stores might not have been as successful.
Yeah. Right. You know, if I wasn't doing it as you, as you know, but yeah. It's it's um, yeah, so I don't know the, what if game is fun, but I'm really, I'm really proud and very happy with what, with what I've done over
[00:42:17] Mike Koelzer, Host: these last 10 years. Yeah. When I'm done, I think I want to be done. How about you? Do you see yourself?
Like. Dabbling forever in the stores, or do you think there'll be a day where you turn that switch off and you're just doing something else? I don't
[00:42:30] Chris Schiller, PharmD: now. I I've forever. My goal is to be, to, to build a legacy or continue a legacy and continue to build a legacy is what I would like to do. So my oldest son, you know, who's 18.
Uh we're. We. You know, talking about colleges and different things and what he wants to be if the apple doesn't fall far from the tree most of the time. So he's, he sees, you know, what all we do at the pharmacy. And so he is really interested in pharmacy. Well, so is my younger one already. And I'm like, guys, you know, pharmacy's a great career.
I don't know if it's gonna be a great career in 10 or 20 years from now. Um, so I'm kind of stuck with that, cuz if they wanna go into pharmacy, that's great. And we'll support 'em as much as we can. And at that point that I think that would be easy, I, I mean, I don't know. I think that'd be easy as far as just like.
Selling out and then being completely away from it. I don't know how, I don't know how I would do with that at first, but now in five years from now, it might be completely different. Right. Um, because if you were to ask me 10 years ago, I'd be like, I'm gonna work here every day, the rest of my life. Yeah.
Right. Because I, you know, I really enjoyed it and I still really enjoy it. Yeah. But now I'm kind of seeing the different stages of life change. How change, what you
[00:43:39] Mike Koelzer, Host: want. I don't think we can even predict where five years is. And so we don't know if we're gonna have to make choices or it's gonna be forced on us, or we're gonna be forced to be there because we couldn't even give our stuff away.
Who knows? Well, I might be
[00:43:54] Chris Schiller, PharmD: the only one standing there filling prescriptions, cuz that's all I can afford. And that's why. You know, we're fighting Oklahoma, you know, us, us independent pharmacists from across the nation are having to fight this, this battle. And it's not because. We're greedy, you know, it's not because I mean, our, our, you know, we are inherent to help people, you know, and they, and, and PBMs have exploited that they've exploited that insurance companies don't pay us for services cuz they know we're gonna do 'em anyway, cuz we help people.
And so we're having a fight for that to keep us viable.
[00:44:24] Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, Chris, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Nice meeting you. Nice to
[00:44:27] Chris Schiller, PharmD: meet you, Mike. Thank you so much for having me. I've had such a great time, um, on your show. Thank you. I'm gonna
[00:44:33] Mike Koelzer, Host: Come visit you Washington congressmen. . Yeah. And at least leave a spot open.
All right, Chris. Thanks.
[00:44:39] Chris Schiller, PharmD: Thanks.
