Navigating Competitive Intelligence | Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD InThought Research

Mike Koelzer: Leon, for those that haven't come across you online, introduce yourself to our audience.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: I'm Leon Henderson McLennan, and I am the medical advisor for the firm InThought Research. We are a consulting firm, and we feature competitive intelligence market research, and all of the underlying layers that make up those fields.[00:13:00] 

Mike Koelzer: Now, Leon, when I hear about competitive intelligence my mind automatically goes to James Bond or whoever, and thinking that in the movies I hear about it and it's always like, you've got the formula for this and that would be good for medicine, kind of the everlasting gobstopper, you know, ingredients and so on. When you talk about intelligence, is it things like the structures or like, where are they going to go next with the drug of the competitors, or is it more like a longer range kind of stuff? Because I imagine that the. and thinking you do is not probably Watergate stuff, right?

It's probably stuff that's legal but fishing around for it.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: It's a lot of fishing around. What information is available that helps our client best develop their assets? Our clients are pharmaceutical companies, biotech companies. So they have a medicine, whether it's on the market or [00:14:00] in clinical trials.

Mike Koelzer: Yeah.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: they need to protect it. They need to nurture it.

They need to make it evolve. They eventually need it to Make money and they need to make money in excess of that, which they spent for R and D.

So it's our job to take a look at that asset, understand what the competitive environment is for that asset and evaluate both the. possibilities for their asset, as well as the possibilities for the competitor's assets.

And they're always looking closely to understand what has happened. their competitor done in the past, brings us up to date on everything that our competitor has done with asset X that we feel may be a threat to our asset. And that includes, efficacy data, safety data, net benefit analysis [00:15:00] market analysis in terms of, how much revenue this could generate.

Agent that is competing with our agent is or can expect to be made by what time. All of that goes into intelligence that's required for the company that we represent to make their best decisions going forward. 

Mike Koelzer: My brother, he has a branding company in California. You're out in LA, he's in. I always joke with him that the CEOs of these companies and even the CMO, the chief marketing and so on, it's like, Tim, why the hell do they hire you?

Don't these guys have any skills on their own? And then I came to decide that it's something like, if things don't go the way we wanted them to, and I'm the CMO, I can blame it on. because I made a bad choice. I got the wrong [00:16:00] consultant, but it doesn't make me as the CMO, like totally worthless. I can just blame it on one decision.

 I always say that jokingly to him and in your stuff, I'm like the one thing I think that I don't see as being real easy, that maybe I could joke about some. The CEO or CMO should just be doing this. Intelligence is getting that information. And then it's, what does that information mean?

Because there's plenty of information out there, but if the CEO and CMO could wave a magic wand, half of that might be getting the information you have, but then it's, where's this going? What does this mean? 

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: That's really it in a nutshell, the next level. I mean, there are plenty of our competitors out there that I believe that is [00:17:00] what they do is that they give their companies that they're working with a lot of data, a lot of information, a lot of material, but the so what? is really missing and that is the area that we wanted to capitalize on when we formed this company.

And we've been 10 years independent now. We're older than that, but as an independent company, we're now celebrating our 10th anniversary and we have always seen that need for reliable interpretation of information. 

Conversations like this is what we want to have with our clients. We are not in the business of handing them all the secondary research, all the data that are out there.

Yeah, sure they could do it, themselves. In a perfect world, we know that the [00:18:00] world is imperfect and think about it this way.

They're hiring people all the time as their company is growing to do a better, and better job with the different silos that they have within their organization. And, eventually they don't have enough resources to do that extra step. And that's why they come to us.

To not only give them the data, not only give them a trove of paper or megabytes,

Mike Koelzer: Yeah. Right.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: but where does that fall into context historically? Where will it fall into context in the future? And most importantly, why do you say that? And there's plenty of times where, you know, we're supporting our theses that we run into some friction.

Have you considered X, Y, and Z that are sort of in diametric opposition to what we're saying? Yes, we've thought of that, hopefully we'll have a comeback for that

 And it's the conversation that we [00:19:00] have, even if it's an argumentative conversation, that really makes, it makes them feel, one,that we are One, that we are interested in what they are doing, and two, that we are prepared to back up what we say, and that there are maybe a couple of camps about why this bit of data means X to us and Y to them. Let's see where it falls out as new data is accumulated to influence the data that we're managing at the time.

So that process is near and dear to us, and it's something that has separated us from a lot of our competitors in our clients eyes, and to that end, we've also spun out a company in Phrenesis that is a knowledge management company taking advantage of big data. And artificial intelligence 

And we're bringing that to bear on the [00:20:00] way that we manage the morass of the data that folks in biotech need to manage to make the decisions that are best for their assets and organization.

Mike Koelzer: It makes me think, I hear this question once in a while. Like, what would you do if you could go back 200 years? You're the only one that gets to go back. And. I always think, oh crap, why'd they pick me as a human to go back? Because I could say, 200 years from now, they're going to have electric light bulbs and they're going to have computers and they're going to have rocket ships and stuff.

And then the people are going to look at me and they say, well, how do we do this? I'm like, I don't know. I've seen but you've got the wrong guy. And. It's just an example in my head of the ideas, even the future guessing and all that kind of stuff. It's okay. What does a company do with that information?

 [00:21:00] And this example, an invention or something like that. So, certainly a huge part of it. Cause anybody can sit back and have ideas. And it's always in the future, you can't really be proven wrong. By that time you've taken the money and run, but when they're asking you, how do we get there, Leon?

Well, now the second day you're there after the big presentation, now you're moving and they get to see the proof is in the pudding 

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: it's interesting because, yeah, once you want to get into that way back machine, then they want to pull you right back into the present because so much of what we're saying,

um, about the future. Yeah, To a certain level can't be challenged. However, we know that, well, if I'm going to go Mark Twain on us, although history doesn't repeat itself, it

certainly rhymes.

Mike Koelzer: Right.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: we can look at history and the predictive value of the past may be limited, but we have to understand how it [00:22:00] is limited. Bring that to bear on our evaluation and not talk about how history will repeat itself, but how it will rhyme. Okay if we were going back, here's how it would look, but you know what?

Okay. if, if we were not going back, you have three other competitors that we haven't even talked about yet that would not have been there had we just gone back. So now let's take these into consideration and apply that same set of learnings so that we can understand how the future may rhyme and we will give not just one scenario.

It's a situation of scenario analysis and Evaluate the, let's say three or four possible outcomes in the future. Let's say if you're looking at three other assets that are going to influence the future, what if two make it to market? What if one makes it to market? What if you are the first mover in this space?

[00:23:00] Because all the other three do not. So you analyze those possibilities. And that gives, I think, everyone a better sense that you are robust

Mike Koelzer: As I think back to the first iPod, it was about the size of a half of a brick and it had 10, 000 songs, something like that. Apple wouldn't have been happy to say they invented this and here it is, and that would be like my offering to the future from 200 years ago, but then it's like, that doesn't stop there, obviously. And then you're thinking, well, I know it's going to keep getting smaller. That's what people want. So you come up with the ipod shuffle . They were the size of a little bit bigger than a postage stamp. 

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: right?

Mike Koelzer: them because you're out for a jog.

You didn't know what button did what in that kind of stuff. And so then they start getting bigger again. And so. the past and the future [00:24:00] doesn't do much unless you can look at those three competitors at the same time.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: It's all about, yeah, putting in the right inputs,

to make your analysis more sticky. And then being flexible. With another piece of data, you're able to incorporate that into your analysis and pivot, if need be, because the faster, obviously, you're able to do that, and this is really important when you're consulting with a larger pharmaceutical company that intrinsically has limited flexibility.

Thank you. Compared to a smaller, more nimble biotech, let's say it's very important there that we get those nuanced analyses correct. And that we're ready to pivot because, once that goes up the tree, don't forget also the people up in the C suite need a very quick pitch.

Mike Koelzer: A

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: [00:25:00] Uh, To, say that we should base our decisions on this particular analysis, our direct client, which might be in business development or might be in their internal competitive intelligence arm, they'll have a little bit more time to analyze our analysis

and we have to make them comfortable with it such that when it does go up the ladder and it's pitched quickly, it's pitched properly.

Mike Koelzer: Lian, I imagine when you make that movement then through the beginning of the C suite in their direct reports, and then moving up through the C suite and so on. Is there anybody that it comes up and, the marketing guy, you can tell he's jealous or pissed and not so much at the idea, but the fact that maybe there's information that they haven't, Thought of 

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: This is an interesting question. I'm laughing because this is a [00:26:00] historical moment right now. From time to time, we've had moments such as this, where perhaps we are not trusted initially. Okay I'll say, and in climbing the ladder, are our ideas pitched with faith?

as we go up, are they faithfully reporting up the chain 

Mike Koelzer: because you're not always there, right?

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: We're not always there for it,

and we're like, wow, boy, they've made this particular decision,

and wow, that didn't seem, it seemed like, our material was advancing, moving up, and so forth, but that wouldn't have been the result.

Of this maneuver, and there we have to come back to the client and address this going forward. And that's a decision that sometimes they have to make, [00:27:00] whether I don't know if it's because of untoward feelings as you're saying towards us personally, business wise, whatever the case might be.

And we have to accept that. And. To stand our ground, if you will go forward and reiterate at that time that, well, here, remember, we, we, we offered this particular analysis which would engender this particular activity. On your company's behalf and we see that, let's say that the clinical trial was designed in a manner that wouldn't demonstrate some novel endpoint that would see them best approach their target product profile.

 instead took a very quote unquote conservative approach where you look like everybody else.

Maybe there's some fear and trepidation, whatever the case might be, or they don't want to,they don't want to move forward quickly, but often we have no way of knowing that.

So I'll return to my [00:28:00] laughter is because, well,

We had a situation like this. I mean, literally in, in like seven or eight iterations of our company ago. And again, I will not mention the company that was involved, but suffice it to say that people were livid and they did not like what we were discussing at all. And they made it clear to us, this company made it clear to us that our analysis was flawed at best and downright malpractice, I guess at worst.

And, we sat on it. Okay here's what they think. We're starting out as rookies. So, don't forget it this time,

we're not making the revenue that we want to make.

And, We don't even know if we're going to actually make it in the industry.

Um, but suffice it to say that [00:29:00] was our entree into actually vaulting.

Onwards and upwards at the time, literally 25 years ago when monoclonal antibodies, let's say, were just becoming competitive in the oncology market. And boy, we were, I mean, we were up there with Satan and his disciples as far As these folks were concerned, but they had to, over drinks it would be groveling, but it was probably less than groveling, but they had to eat crow and we ended up on some very big platforms media wise. And that sort of vaulted us into the

Accelerated pathway that we've been on. So, yeah it, so far so good.

Mike Koelzer: Some people bring you along for that ride up the ladder? Like, Hey, Leon does a hell of a lot better job than I do in expressing this. Would somebody say, Hey, Leon, let's go to these three meetings over two weeks. And we're going to end [00:30:00] up at the board meeting, or I imagine one Trepidation of that is they don't want to make you look too smart or else they're like, What am I doing at this point? But do some people bring you all the way up physically to the board meeting?

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: On occasion we'll hit the roadshows. And this is one of the benefits of having Been there. In one iteration before in thought, sell side analysts. So we have been used to that type of activity that type of pitch, constant pitch for a few days visiting different investor groups,

um, and making our analysis known.

And so, although it's happened less frequently as we've grown it's still part of one of the activities that we can certainly do. And we really cherish those moments, of course when we're given the opportunity.

Mike Koelzer: Does anything ever get you pissed off in the process, [00:31:00] either at a person or yourself or your team or someone you're reporting to? Does anything ever get under your skin with the obstinance, maybe of people in that process?

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: I. If I'm not constantly pissed off, I'm at least constantly skeptical. Um, I have a reputation as the greatest skeptic known to humankind. I really try to take every bit of information with a grain of salt.

Um, I am most agitated when a company appears to be drinking their own Kool Aid,

um, and overestimating the degree to which their assets may have an influence given what is actually on the table at the time.

Mike Koelzer: Like

a pharmacy

thinks their business is worth a hell of a lot more than it is when they go to sell it.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: Those types of things that can definitely [00:32:00] happen. Are you overvaluing your assets? So at once I'm pissed, but of course that gives an opportunity to gently reevaluate the processes.

And, I always know that when I do have those emotions, when I am agitated, when I am skeptical, when I don't see why something is being developed in the way it is being developed, or even a whole sub industry perhaps, a whole therapeutic area.

That is an opportunity. I know that I need to then. rein myself in,

And bring these disparities to my colleagues, to my team. And I need to articulate that which doesn't meet the eye

Mike Koelzer: down or you increase your [00:33:00] argument. You know where the soft spots are and where you have to do better.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: Absolutely. And it puts a check and balance, I think, out there for me. Because, I always have to be prepared to be wrong.

And I have no problem with that. , that means, okay, I have to see why my client is thinking that way.

I have to see why the opposition of my client, the competitor to my client, is thinking that way.

I have to put myself in either client's shoes. Competitor's shoes or both

Mike Koelzer: Absolutely.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: why I have that visceral reaction. Okay. And that's going to help my conversations. That's going to help my team's conversations. That's going to help us represent our client that much better.

 just really engenders a great deal of excellent conversation, [00:34:00] and it helps us understand when we're talking with the client about it, or when we're talking to the client about their competitors.

It helps us understand that we care. It helps us understand whether the client really cares, or whether we care.

The competitors really care when it is emotional like that, the worst thing to happen is when that is lacking in any way, really, honestly it's when it is neutral, it's just going about business and, business as usual,

which really.

is a Pharmaceuticals, biotechs, really should never be that way. It should always be a little volatile, a little controversial, by its very nature.

by its very nature, it's a competitive, whirlwind industry.

Mike Koelzer: It reminds me of when we were building like 20 years ago our house and we were in our city but the Builder was from the city next [00:35:00] door and they built our fireplace and the inspector came from our city and said, no, this isn't right. Cause you have to have the mantles gotta be so many degrees and wide from where the fire actually is.

If it's wood and this is stone and all that. And I remember them being pissed at our builder being pissed about it. And I thought, Hey, good. What better thing to be pissed about than is your fireplace safe with the inspector? So I thought, wonderful,

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: Yep. I like it.

Mike Koelzer: she'll say some things and she always catches me with my phone underneath the. Counter looks up Wikipedia to double check and she doesn't like that. And I say, Margaret, my job as a pharmacist is to be skeptical of every prescription that comes through. I don't get to beautify a prescription by [00:36:00] putting flowers on it and stuff, and I can take pride in how I'm talking to the patient about it and how I might bring up ideas about their health.

But. In general, I have to look negatively at everything I do. So I just blame my skepticism on the profession. I'm a perfect husband. It's just the profession that has given me problems.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: I like that. I was literally going to do the same thing

as you were saying that because it wasn't until a year, year and a half ago that I wasn't still practicing. So I'm an internist and a medical geneticist and skepticism is our middle name because we always have to, we always have to battle battles. battle.

On behalf of the patient, we always have to battle on behalf of, is this the proper benefit to risk ratio that we can accept to make life better for them. And that's what [00:37:00] it comes down to. I mean, that's you know. When you were saying that, I had to laugh because I said the same thing. And as a matter of fact it's how my business partner and I met, Ben Weintraub.

We had the typical MD versus PhD argument and ended up shaking hands. Let's work together, at the dinner afterwards. and that's how we have approached a lot of our business going forward too. We want to get into those scraps. 

Mike Koelzer: when you have a company with two founders I wouldn't go into business with somebody unless I had to, or unless I knew there were very complimentary puzzle pieces that fit mine, not the same. Around the pharmacy. I hire a bunch of yes, people. I like yes, people. I told my wife, I had to get rid of somebody a few weeks ago or something, man, I gave her some reasons.

She's like, Oh, you just didn't like that. She didn't say [00:38:00] yes all the time. I said, yeah, that's right.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: there you go.

Mike Koelzer: But when it's a partner, when it's someone that you're reaching to the stars with, you

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: Yeah,

Mike Koelzer: yes person

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: right.

Mike Koelzer: someone with the same skills, you need those complementary ones.

So that's cool that you both Saw the value of that.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: oh, and that was just the beginning. This was, again, a quarter century ago, this was after I thought I was making good money consulting while I was still doing my fellowship in medical genetics, and I was able to pay off my loans and whatnot. And a good friend of mine said, you are being robbed.

You need to start a business. And you know, that's the end of the meeting with Ben Weintraub. And like you said, it's key to fly with someone that you can battle with. So that just started at that moment. And then we brought in Chris Martin, who is now [00:39:00] looking at our project, the knowledge management platform that I was talking about.

So then we were three and literally through the next six or seven iterations, we picked up someone from each of those iterations to build in thought.

Little did we know that it was going to be in thought at the time,

but it was always someone with whom we could have a long conversation and not always agree, but at least see, all the nuanced sides to an argument that we may not have had before.

And I needed a lot of help. In not being a business person myself, I need smarter people than me. I need collaborative people with me and I need someone who, or many ones

who were thinking along the same [00:40:00] lines in terms of, we have to be passionate about what we're doing and we can't lose our humanity in doing so we can't be robots.

We still have to be dedicated to our families and friends. We work hard, we play hard, and we literally pick up someone at every stop with that same spirit. That turned us into InThought when we were with Reuters and Wolters Kluwer after that, and then it was Thomson Reuters, then it was Symphony Health, and picked up someone along the way and then spun out of that organization, 2009.

In 2014 we bought ourselves out and here we are today. But yeah, we have a nice core team. We have a great company culture that keeps us going.

Mike Koelzer: When were you least correct? In [00:41:00] an idea, maybe you didn't share it all the way with somebody, but when were you the least correct in something you held close, whether it was something physical, like a certain drug should do this or whether it was a direction you thought a company should take somehow you found out you were wrong. Or at least your decision wasn't the best one.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: That is an intriguing question. I'm going to start with,

Let's put it this way. We had one company that was our takeout candidate of the year. They were gonna get 15 years ago,

14 years ago,

13, 12, [00:42:00] six. Four, two, they're still independent and they're still mostly thriving. They were attractive to others and they remained attractive to themselves. Hit a couple of stumbling blocks, but overall continue to grow.

That one comes to mind immediately because we laugh about it all the time and we laughed about it the other day.

Mike Koelzer: And that one there is one that you thought they'd be better off acquired. That would be the road to success.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: We thought, one, it would be better, and two, all the historical stars, if you will, guided us in that direction was a biotech, and it's still a biotech. And has grown through everything [00:43:00] and withstood quite a bit.

Mike Koelzer: Who put the brakes on that one?

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: That's an interesting question and for the lack of a better individual, I'm going to call it the marketplace.

I am going to call it shrewd. management around headwinds and navigation of sometimes muddied waters,

And most often with a clear sense of direction. And it wasn't through any miscalculation.

Of ours, but it's certainly, when you're talking to an investor, you're not always looking, of course to do so because of that possibility. And for us, it was a probability.

Nevertheless, it can't [00:44:00] be ignored in conversation. Fortunately although it wasn't the massive wins necessarily for folks that we spoke with, still they were able to win.

 when do we take that plunge kind of, and then it just never happened.

Yeah, despite a lot of Senses in the opposite direction. they just muddled through, stuck to their guns. And, I don't know everything happening behind the scenes, of course.

Mike Koelzer: Just persevered.

Yeah. Leon, what is your deliverable to these companies? Is it like a day where you show up and say, here's what I'm thinking? Is it just always a drip and you don't really have a final project date where you present this? What is the end of, and I'm sure you'd like to keep companies on too, but what are some of them? The bigger markers of a deliverable, whether it's a paper or a presentation or what?

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: Yeah, there are many deliverables. [00:45:00] I think, our core deliverables really are what we call competitive monitoring reports,

Those are typically landscape analyses, including understanding all of the assets that are competing with the ones our particular client is developing. So a competitive monitoring report would have all the assets listed from marketed all the way down to paid .

Usually phase one, but a lot of early folks like the preclinical and research columns as well within there, you're going to, of course, look at the timing of events. For instance, for the developmental compounds will have timeline analysis of when events are anticipated to happen, whether they're announced or whether they're modeled, Um, it can be, you know, The timing of trial completion, the primary completion date of the trial, when data might be available for it, which meetings might those [00:46:00] data be presented at, which will be top line, which will be more mature data and on down the pike, and of course, regulatory milestones, when is the NDA or BLA going to be submitted and will it be, a normal review or will it be an accelerated approval

process. Why is that? And, you know, we map that out in a PowerPoint presentation. We would love to have people shift to our Infernesis related knowledge management system depiction of it. We think that's the wave of the future rather than always having it on something that needs to be changed constantly.

We want it to be in a reservoir where there is some automaticity behind those changes. That's what we've made available for those particular competitive monitoring reports. Within the competitive monitoring report, we also want to have what's called a state of the art assessment.

How are things looking today? Some people will want, how things will be in the future. Three years, five years [00:47:00] given market dynamics and data readouts and so forth. So we'll provide that target product profiles or something that we like to establish as well. How close is a developmental product looking to its expected label.

Package insert so looking at all of the segments of the package insert and benchmarking where the developmental asset is in terms of reaching that aim. We do conference coverage, so a lot of deliverables have to do with conference coverage. That's where we get a lot of information.

Good secondary and primary research. For instance, right now we have ASCO going on, American Society of Clinical Oncology. You also have ENDO going on, the endocrinology meetings at this time, but we typically have at least a couple of people on the ground covering those meetings and also the analysts from [00:48:00] our company covering the meetings for specific clients as well.

So conference coverage is big. 

Mike Koelzer: It's kind of a hand holding and adjusting the rudders as you go. You might say, we think of going here but kind of hand holding. 

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: So if you have a one year contract with us, get your feet wet contract we'll let's say, offer five or six conferences that we feel are appropriate for coverage and we'll do the pre conference report we'll run or be part of the daily debriefing After presentations are made for the day and, of course, develop a top line conference report that's immediately available and then, one, week or two after the conference as well.

That's our typical conference coverage. There are nuances of that. That we want to fit for the client.

Um, there's revenue forecasting, as I was talking about, as well as probability of approval modeling. Those are two other types of deliverables [00:49:00] that clients have found valuable going forwards.

Mike Koelzer: Is that conference, is that something they're presenting or they're just trying to soak some stuff up information and so

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: it's usually both.

Mike Koelzer: Both.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: It's usually both. Usually the client has a couple of presentations and there, I think our big value is looking at things from the outside and helping them understand how their material was perceived in the marketplace by various stakeholders. And also certainly how their.

Competitors are faring as well. What are people saying about their competitors? Are their competitors on track to continue their development as we have predicted, or are they altered? Are they moving slower? Are they not enrolling in their trials as quickly? Are they enrolling their trials ahead of schedule?

Yes, we always want to ensure that they understand all the dynamism that is [00:50:00] behind the drug development landscape that they're facing. So yes, it's always dynamic. It's not a one stop, here's all the deliverables. Thanks for playing anyway. Now. It's an ongoing conversation because life and drug development is ongoing and that's where we provide the value.

Mike Koelzer: What's the word I'm looking for? Not spying that your company does, but you

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: Gathering intel.

Mike Koelzer: Intel!

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: really it.

Mike Koelzer: fancy. Alright, 

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: Gathering intel. Yeah, so 

Mike Koelzer: Am I going to see Leon pop up from a trash bin in the back alley of some company?

Or, is it meeting in the parking garage at 11: 30 at night? What kind of Intel are we talking about? And I imagine sometimes there's a lot of good Intel that's. Right out there, but either it's a puzzle piece. And so you don't realize it's Intel or it just took a little dig in and it's out there.

What [00:51:00] kind of Intel and just so you know, the followup question is going to be, tell me the most daring gathering. 

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: The gamut. It runs the gamut from the absolute mundane day to day.

Here's a press release. We're cool. we're just the greatest company in the world. Here, our conclusion is this is the greatest data in the world.

Mike Koelzer: It is really, excellent data may not change the world, but it'll advance the asset, and it'll get you to where you want to be.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: Those are the classic ones. On the other side of the coins are the ones that we're the greatest company. Look at us. This may not have met its primary endpoint, but you know what? There was a subset of folks that upon retrospective analysis, we achieved X.

Mike Koelzer: This is those companies, you're reading their press releases and things is that what that

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: correct.

Mike Koelzer: Gotcha. [00:52:00] Okay.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: Yeah. So it, let's say it's the competitor of our client's asset. Right.

And here they are saying all of these things. We have to determine whether X is really something that's not the primary endpoint that'll take it forward. Let's say it's a phase two trial.

 Or it's just like, Oh my God, the Kool Aid that's being served here is just tasteless.

Mike Koelzer: joke I don't do this, but people will say How so and so as an employee and pretend like they weren't a good one. I'll say things like oh I just can't say enough good things about them or there's nobody here that works quite like he does, you know those kinds of things. But I imagine there's a lot of lingo you're reading between the lines on these things.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: There is. And those are the beautiful secondaries that come out on a daily basis. We're evaluating those possibilities, trying to separate the wheat from the chaff and trying to help understand which one.

Mike Koelzer: and they might've mentioned something about the first quarter, something or other, and now here it is the third quarter. That didn't happen. [00:53:00] And in the history of this company, do they always do this? Or what did they miss? That kind of stuff. It's stuff right out in the open, but you're

Piecing that together.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: Putting it into context in that. Yeah, exactly. And that's a really good one. We've had one company that has been stalled in delivering their data for several months now, and that is Agitating certain constituency that would like to give them more money, but is sitting on the sidelines

Mike Koelzer: So Leon, your company structures, it's cool. It sounds like you bring pretty high skill in when you need it. And I know that you were talking about the knowledge company. There going to be any more peel offs that come that you think is more of a specialty company that maybe needs its own area?

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: Yeah, that's a great question, Mike. And as a matter of fact we are already going down that road because, We've been talking about pharmaceutical companies. We've been talking about [00:54:00] biotechnology companies. We've gone from very tried and true but not nimble to very nimble biotechs.

But there's a stage before that that needs to be addressed. When you're talking about moving from the scientific bench to the patient's bedside It all starts with discovery, Someone feels that they have an idea and someone feels they can take it forward. They don't even know whether they need to be incorporated to do that or just how to get that.

There's so many. There are just so many smart people in this country and so many smart people at universities developing technologies, developing drugs, developing various assets that are going to help people over time. So we've spun out a company called Aspire, S P I R E. Okay, and solely [00:55:00] dedicated to this early stage development.

And I think we help people and Bring assets forward, bring ideas forward, answer the questions for them of where do we go from here? What do I need to do to get my drug or device going? Further sometimes it's a matter of incorporating straight away. Sometimes it's a matter of, outlining a time frame for them to go forward.

But the head of this arm, Jaya Pearson Leary, is just energetic and thoughtful about how we can move forward together. People with great ideas forward. I mean, there's a lot of coordinate efforts at various universities, for instance, there's think tanks And even [00:56:00] entrepreneur based modes

To move them forward.

Yet there's a piece missing. There's a piece missing in terms of helping them develop presentations that get proper funding going forward helping them understand next steps. So we've actually, and Jaya's led this approached these incubators. They need help in doing this as well.

And it's a wonderful start. It can be a cash business. It can be an equity business for us. And we're extraordinarily excited about this new opportunity as well.

Mike Koelzer: Yeah. Imagine that whole of, equity and, cash in that. I was just listening last night. Do you remember Jewel? the folk singer with the blonde hair and the

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: Yeah.

Mike Koelzer: I can say

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: Yeah.

Mike Koelzer: because I looked it up today. I'm like,

Why didn't Jewel ever get her tooth fixed and she didn't.

it's her trademark, it's her trademark kind of thing. But she [00:57:00] was saying that on her first album, it was either she could get a million up front or have backend revenue on it. and she said the reason she didn't take the million is because she considered herself an artist. And sometimes artists have to build, and sometimes artists don't have a great sale on their first one. So, that's that with, that's that with Jewel. 

Well, golly, Leon, thanks for joining us. It was fun to see the structures of these companies, because there's a lot of strong ideas, a lot of emotions, and a lot of personalities in there too. ideas and movement are not always easy. So it's cool to see how that all came together.

 Know you're a busy guy. I appreciate your time. Our listeners appreciate it and it is a pleasure to meet you. I look forward to seeing where everything goes.

Leon Henderson-MacLennan, MD: Thank you very much, Mike. The pleasure is mine and happy to see where everything goes with your [00:58:00] podcast too. I've enjoyed them.

Mike Koelzer: Oh, thank you very much. All right, Leon is very good. Take care.

Speaker: You've been listening to the Business of Pharmacy podcast with me, your host, Mike Kelser. Please subscribe for all future episodes.