TakeChargeRx | Terry Forshee, BPharm, and Angela Forshee

This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.

[00:00:12] Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, good morning, Terry and Angela. Thanks for, uh, joining us here on the business of pharmacy podcasts. Good 

[00:00:17] Terry Forshee: morning. Good morning. Glad to be here. 

[00:00:20] Mike Koelzer, Host: Thank you. Where, where are we calling you? Are you in Tennessee? Do I have that 

[00:00:23] Terry Forshee: right? We're in a little town. Well, it used to be a little town. It's not so much in more, but Cleveland, Tennessee, which is kind of a suburb of Chattanooga.

So we're in east Tennessee. We're at, as we're talking to you, we are two miles from the Tennessee Georgia state. 

[00:00:37] Mike Koelzer, Host: Okay. So you are probably getting some heat down there a little bit more than us right now. 

[00:00:43] Terry Forshee: Yeah. A lot of heat. The heat index yesterday was like 110. It was hot. 

[00:00:48] Mike Koelzer, Host: So what do you do? Do you stay inside all?

No. The time or are you used to 

[00:00:51] Terry Forshee: it? Uh, you just get used to it. You just sweat? No, I, 

[00:00:56] Angela Forshee: I like to go to the pool a lot. You like to go to the pool? Yes. I'm a pool person. That's nice. I'm an 

[00:01:01] Mike Koelzer, Host: outdoors person. Wow. That's that. That's nice. I, uh, our summers are okay up here in Michigan, but the winters get a little bit, uh, a little bit touchy.

So Terry and Angela, um, rumor has it. You two are married. 

[00:01:15] Terry Forshee: Yeah. Most of the time. Yeah. Yeah. We, we, we on paper, we are, yeah. , we're three weeks away from 42 years. Congratulations. 

[00:01:25] Mike Koelzer, Host: Thank you. And you're on the show today because you run a program for pharmacists. Tell us what that program 

[00:01:34] Terry Forshee: is. Well, it's called taking charge, uh, and, and what.

We're trying to understand that what we're dispensing is headed. I mean, I've been an independent pharmacist for 42 years. I know the business I've had as many as five stores and six additional entities during that time. So I know what's happening. I see dispensing. I think it's been very difficult for independent pharmacists to accept the fact that.

Dispensing is never coming back as a profit center again, and we need to be changing. I don't know of anything that there's a greater need in healthcare than preventative care. First of all, as an overall niche, then individually obesity, which is the number one cost driver for every payer, uh, in the nation and actually, you know, beginning to be in the world with it.

And so, you know, my feeling is that. Because of our communication skills as pharmacists, because of our ability to interact with other healthcare professions. I just believe pharmacists are a natural fit, uh, to address this problem. And as of yet in a hundred billion dollar cash industry, there's no other healthcare professional that is seized this moment in time.

[00:02:51] Mike Koelzer, Host: No other healthcare professional has seized this opportunity. 

[00:02:57] Terry Forshee: You would say. Yes. No, because you think about the competitors in the, in the world. I mean, the Jenny Craigs, the Nutrisystems, the Weight Watchers, the LA weight losses, the emetogenic, all those things. None of the healthcare professionals are really, uh, involved in any of 'em.

As a matter of fact, they work hard to bypass healthcare professionals. So I just believe that to be again, because of the things I will probably talk about as we go along, but I just believe pharmacists are perfect as health coaches. And to motivate patients and to communicate with patients, we just have to convince ourselves that we can do it because our patients believe in us, unfortunately, more than we believe in ourselves.

[00:03:40] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah, it seems like. And, and your point about the, um, not wanting the medical people involved. Yeah, probably some of the last things they want is to run it through the medical profession and, and get opinions on it from the health professionals and get studies done and things like that, where pharmacy is the opposite.

I like what you said there. Pharmacists do not believe in their cells to do it. And, um, boy, tell, tell me when you guys started this program, um, I imagine that you could, you could plan plan, plan and come out with the whole program, but I'm guessing that maybe you started with some, some people and actually started, which is hard for pharmacists to believe, but you actually started charging for, uh, your consultation and so on cash.

Is that, do I have that right? 

[00:04:32] Terry Forshee: Yes. And that, and that's still. You know, we're not, we have not obtained provider status nationally yet. Now we have in many states and particularly in my state here of Tennessee, we have one of the best, uh, provider acts, uh, in the country. And so I can pretty much do anything I want to do as a pharmacist.

We even passed the law and a lot of states have done the same thing. Um, in Washington, Oklahoma. So many others have determined that if we can do a professional clinical service, the insurers have to pay us for it. The problem is we still haven't written the regulations here in Tennessee after two years, really.

And so it's very frustrating, uh, to deal with, but the cash market is extremely significant. You know, I started doing this program back in 1998 in my own world, on my own. I didn't own the company. I just started doing it and I found out it transformed my pharmacy practice. In that, that, I mean, for immunizations, for diabetes counseling, for hormone consultations, all these things.

I, I, I admit I didn't have the confidence to, to start charging patients for them. And so take charge through this process before I own the company. Even through this process, I figured out that patients value what I have to. And value my ability to motivate and, and to help them. And we all, you can't be an independent pharmacy practice particularly, and not be able to motivate and communicate.

With patients, otherwise you're a chain pharmacist. Yeah. Uh, there's no reason 

[00:06:12] Angela Forshee: to worry about that. Mike, this is one thing to me that's very frustrating. Um, as a nurse, as a wife, as a female, and of course, a lot of nurses, I mean, a lot of pharmacists are females these days, you know, but years ago when Terry's talking about, he started the take charge program.

He actually did seminars and things like that for the, on the original owner of the company. And. And back. And during that time too, Tennessee pharmacists were one of the first people that could even give immunizations. And we did that, you know, we got a lot of resistance for that. And now then you see that pharmacists have jumped on board with doing all that in a lot of different states, they make money doing it, but it's really, you know, for them to believe that they can really charge for these services and help so many people like Terry's talking about with obesity, with, you know, hormones, with all these different.

Disease state processes that end up being a direct result of the obesity crisis in charge of that, you know, people charge for everything all the time, all day long, you know, and they don't hesitate to. And as a matter of fact, you know, they expect to pay and that's one thing. Sure. That's it. The mind processes to get beyond that with some individuals to think that people will pay for this service when they do it every day with these other entities that he's talking about with, um, Jenny Craig and Weight Watchers and all this, it's all cash based.

And so that's probably, for me, you know, is one of the most frustrating things, you know, to deal with on an ongoing basis. 

[00:07:45] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah, it seems like, you know, they have no problem charging, but I think pharmacists kind of get that in there, stuck in there, in their head. It seems well. And 

[00:07:53] Terry Forshee: particularly my generation, because let's say when, when I came out of pharmacy school in 1978, up through the mid nineties, dispensing was very profitable.

Uh, you know, we did, uh, counseling and charting and all these kinds. Way before it was mandated by Oprah, uh, 90 way before we had to do those things. Um, but the average person in my generation got paid enough as expense prescriptions that they could do all this other stuff for free. But yeah. Right as that began to change, you know, when you're down to losing money off a third of the prescriptions that you just spent.

And then barely making two or $3 off of the other one. We, you know, you gotta have, you gotta change. You gotta have a different mechanism to survive. And that's where my generation has really struggled because we're so used to doing it one way. And, and we, we, we give great talk. We, we want to change, we wanna do clinical service.

Uh, but, but we just will not take that step and deep down. If, if you could, could administer a tooth serum and, and talk to these pharmacists of my generation, they would sit there and say, I don't believe patients will pay me for anything. That's still the number one. Objection that we get. Matter of fact, I just got one Friday, you know, with a pharmacist, I spent 45 minutes on the phone with them.

And their final response was, I just don't believe my patients will pay me. Well, no. Then, then, then what's your plan where, right? How are you, are you going to survive in your profession and practice your profession? If nobody's gonna pay you because you make it otherwise. 

[00:09:38] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. And I think not only do pharmacists not want to don't think they're gonna get paid, they're probably afraid to 

[00:09:43] Angela Forshee: ask, give them the option to say, here's, here's what we've got.

And you know, this is this program and this is the price. And to see, you know, how many people will pay for it, you know, it's, it's crazy, you know, and so many of them will say, well, we just don't have enough. Farms, I mean enough patients in our community. And, um, you know, we have a pharmacist right now and a little small town right outside here in Chatsworth, Georgia.

That's just how many, how many patients they have Terry and how many are in their community? Well, 

[00:10:12] Terry Forshee: he had to, he had to turn it off cause he got 12 patients in the first month and that's all, he didn't wanna see that many. He wants to do about four or five at a time, you know, tell 

[00:10:21] Mike Koelzer, Host: for those that don't know, because I jump right into the, I'm always fascinated by the background of the, the business for those that don't know, give us sort of the elevator pitch.

Give me a one minute pitch of what this program is. If you were on a TV ad for a minute, what would it roughly be? 

[00:10:40] Terry Forshee: Obesity is the number one cost driver for every payer, whether it's an employer. Whether it is, uh, an insurer, whether it's Medicare, Medicaid, it doesn't matter. The statistics show that obesity is going to break the healthcare system, if something isn't done.

And so our theory is that pharmacists are the ideal, uh, person to, to be out evil, professional, to be involved in this because we see the patient. I mean every patient we see every 30 days or certainly multiple times within 90 days and, and statistics back that up. And so we're in contact with them.

They can ask us questions, they can do everything. And, and we're the ones that can have an impact on this. We have all the knowledge, the day we graduate from farms to school, we know all the clinical technical things to help patients, uh, address lifestyle, change, what we lack. Is the belief in ourselves that patients value us the 

[00:11:47] Angela Forshee: way that they do.

Okay. He, that it was more than 60 seconds. Wasn't it? Mike? it did. 

[00:11:52] Mike Koelzer, Host: Okay. Well, well listen. Okay. So that was the first 60, the second 60 now, now, um, Angela, you're on the, uh, you're the other part of this infomercial. So now. What are the pharmacists getting? So for only XX 99, you'll get, what, what are the pharmacists getting in?

What are they getting 

[00:12:14] Angela Forshee: program in the program? 

[00:12:17] Mike Koelzer, Host: What are they getting? What is the program? So, what are they, what is the take charge program? Okay. 

[00:12:23] Angela Forshee: If they come on board to purchase the program, is that what you're asking me? Okay, sure. Yeah. First of all, they get our lifestyle. Uh, body analyzer, um, is probably the, the biggest thing is the diagnostics part of our program.

And that's, so that we've worked on now for at least five years developing this, um, machine that they get. But it's really more than a machine. It's a computer and it, they can get all of this data put into. Computers so that they don't have to worry about paperwork anymore. They don't have to worry about the time it takes to get there.

But the thing about it is when a patient comes in and they start on this, um, they. Have all these different ethnicities that we have incorporated into this, uh, lifestyle at IQ machine now. And what makes it so unique? Is that not only are we just considering when a patient loses weight, we are considering their ethnicity in which.

In turn determines how this patient loses weight because different people have different muscle masses. They have different Heights, weights, all these different things, and no one has ever, ever tested and had data on this before for any of these patients. So this is brand new, and this is something that we have just started incorporating with our patients this last year.

[00:13:52] Mike Koelzer, Host: And. What, what is the length of the program? So I imagine that the, uh, customers are in communication with the pharmacist every so often. And, and how long does that take? Yes, it started 

[00:14:07] Angela Forshee: out as a 13 week program. It's a 26 week program now, and we have a new, uh, tech charge app too. That has been converted from the booklets that the patient used to read.

And they came in once a week for like a 10, 15 minute session with, um, the pharmacist to meet with them. 

[00:14:25] Mike Koelzer, Host: Oh, and, and they would like read 

[00:14:28] Angela Forshee: their homework. They would read about this and then we would quiz them on what they learned through the week. And it actually had like, test at the end of this booklet, but now with our new take charge app that we've also developed, it has put this into video format, which is excellent.

Excellent. Excellent. I've been over this at least six, seven times minimum, probably 10, 12 times with developing this new app and it teaches them. They can go back and they can review and look and learn. And. The patient is able to do this on their own, but it also with the pharmacist in his time, too, it minimizes the time too that they have to answer some of these questions, but it also emphasizes all of the important information that the patients need to know, and they can go back and review it each week.

And, but the good thing about it is they can't go on to the next step for the next week until they have learned what they need to learn for each week. 

[00:15:27] Mike Koelzer, Host: Oh, that's interesting. 

[00:15:28] Terry Forshee: Well, it's interesting. That's a patient driven process too, by the way, Mike. I mean, that's really the beauty of what we do is that the patient is in control.

In other words, the pharmacist doesn't have to spend time. Listen, Mike, you can't eat pizza. You can never have a beer. You can't have burgers with fries. 

[00:15:47] Mike Koelzer, Host: There's Terry, do you want me to turn this in? Do you want me to turn this program off right 

[00:15:51] Terry Forshee: now? And that's exactly what your patient would say. if you told them that 

[00:15:55] Mike Koelzer, Host: you gotta stop talking like that, if we're gonna continue.

[00:15:58] Terry Forshee: Exactly. And so we don't do that. I mean, the patient decides they watch the videos or they read the lessons and, and it basically lies. Uh, through a six month process, which by the way, was not accidental. That's the CDC, the national institutes for health. Gotcha. Determined. That's what we need to do. And so we fit into all of those modes, but the patient determines what they're willing to do.

And when a patient asks me, what can you eat? Take charge, eat, need anything you want to, what we're trying to show you. You can't keep doing everything that you have been doing and expect it to change. What we want you to do is to go through our process and you pick and choose well now, maybe I can't give up pizza all together, but maybe I.

Only have two slices. Maybe I could eat a salad before we have the pizza. Maybe, you know, maybe, you know, instead of having a half a case of beer on Saturday night, maybe I could have a six pack, you know, I'm you to make some changes and it's very upfront. We're very upfront through this educational process.

We take that pressure off of the pharmacist. We tell the patient right up there, you gotta be willing to change this won't work unless you're willing to change. And so it's a patient driven process. But the value of having a pharmacist who knows their health conditions, who knows, uh, you know, a lot about most of the time, knows their families, they know what they're up against, whether they're their significant other is on board with them.

How many kids they got playing soccer or, or football yeah. Or basketball, they know all these things. And therefore, as a coach, they can kind of rally around them and help them understand this is your. You know, you can't do this program the way I would do it. This is your life and your program and your process.

We're here to help you. And as a result, it cuts down on the amount of time that a pharmacist has to spend, uh, to see this coming. And so that's what we try to do is to make it the pharmacist time needs to be five to seven minutes because that's where we're going to be as more and more payers come on board and start paying us for this profit.

[00:18:06] Mike Koelzer, Host: Right. Tell me about speaking of change. Tell me about, um, uh, Terry and Angela. I know that you've been through a lot of pharmacy and business upstarts. Am I imagining also that you've been through some closings of pharmacies and 

[00:18:23] Terry Forshee: businesses? Yes. Well, it's, it's, it's, it's very sad now. Yes. I mean, and, and, 

[00:18:28] Mike Koelzer, Host: and, and tell me the, tell me the emotions.

Tell me the emotions that go along with that. 

[00:18:34] Terry Forshee: Well, it hurts because what, what we're seeing, I mean, we, we, we just saw basically that, uh, you know, Walmart just laid off 600 pharmacies. Uh, yeah, we see now that CVS is closing, uh, 200 stores. Now, so all these pharmacists are out there then, you know, we talk Walgreens, Walgreens, Walgreens mean?

Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and we see that these independent pharmacists, we see them closing right. And left because they're, again, they're my generation. Now they're throwing up their hands. I don't wanna change, you know, I'm 62, 65, 67 years old. And I don't wanna change, but the problem is I know what it's like.

I know I see their communi. What they're looking at, they follow these patients, you know, most of 'em are now seeing their, their original patients, grandkids, and great grandkids, filling prescriptions for them. Their communities need them to be a part of it. And, and now, and now they can't. And, and that's, that's just a very heartbreaking thing for them, but it's heartbreaking as a pharmacist.

I mean, I tell people all the time I've actually worked in pharmacy since I was 13 years old. I'm very close to 50 years old. In pharmacy and yeah, that's all I know. That's all I've been around and that's, I hate to see them have to end their careers like this. 

[00:20:02] Mike Koelzer, Host: What kind of, I, I know the, of the businesses that you closed, um, was that.

It seems that the more you, the more businesses that you had when you're closing, it doesn't seem like I'm guessing maybe as much of a life change, cuz you're not going from on to off you're going on with a handful and off of one does that. Right. Did, did that help you, that you didn't have all your eggs in one basket?

[00:20:31] Terry Forshee: Yes, it did. I mean, we're in a unique situation in Tennessee where I don't know if you've heard of, of 10. That we were the first managed care Medicaid program that was launched in the United States, Tennessee and Maine were the first two. So we, I got to see the bad side of this years before it started happening in every other state.

And so, you know, we began, we had five, five pharmacies, three home health companies, uh, two home infusion entities, two compounding pharmacies. We had all these things when this started. But from the day, it, it, it went on from, from, um, uh, December 31st. I, and I might have one year off here, but I think it was December 31st, 1997, we were making X percent profit in January.

The first of 1998. Our profit dropped 25% overnight. Wow. Because of this. And so what we did, we began to shrink, we had two stores in Cleveland, Tennessee. We brought them together as. Uh, yeah, we began to, we sold off one of our, probably our, our busiest and, and, and best pharmacy at the time, uh, in a little mountain community in Tennessee, and we sold it off to get out of debt so that I could begin the transformation.

Uh, and that's when I found take charge for my own practice. And when I began to, to focus on more clinical processes that were out there. So it was easier in a sense, but still. You know, it's hard in your own communities when people see you closing a store and shrinking in, because they, you know, it affects those families.

Uh, they feel, you know, and to be honest with you, they feel sorry for you because they hate for you to do this. Uh, then you close down a whole community and it reverberates through Chattanooga through all that. Yeah. Cause we marketed in a tri-state area when we had five. So we had dogs in Georgia, Cleveland, Tennessee, Chattanooga, Tennessee, which form a triangle.

That's right. Uh, basically we marketed as an entity in all of them and we had very unique programs, but, but we had, you know, in order to survive, we had to start shrinking. 

[00:22:38] Angela Forshee: And Mike, you're talking about stores closing. We did just in the last four years, there was a, uh, convention that we used to go to in Orlando, Florida.

And we had a list of pharmacists that, uh, we called and, um, checked in with. And so we just about two months ago called these pharmacists on this list to check in and see what was going on with them. And I think it was for almost a hundred stores, right. Terry that had closed within the last four years.

[00:23:06] Terry Forshee: Yeah. Almost 50%. 

[00:23:09] Mike Koelzer, Host: Wow. What, what were your guys? Um, and, and I don't wanna, I, I don't wanna focus on the. N negative and, and we'll turn this around. Um, unless Carrie keeps telling me I can't drink my beer anymore. 

[00:23:25] Terry Forshee: we'll turn. That's a good one. 

[00:23:29] Mike Koelzer, Host: we'll turn this around, but what, what emotions did you go through individually?

Um, Angela. And Terry, and as a couple, what emotions did you go through when you realized this was happening in early 1998? And you knew that it's really sad 

[00:23:45] Angela Forshee: and you know, these people and you know who they are, and you've talked to 'em over years and actually a good friend of ours that I'm friends with on Facebook, just, um, Posted, uh, two weeks ago and he didn't think this store was gonna close.

There were rumors that his store was going to close in Louisiana. And then last week he posted on their friends. I'm sorry to tell you that our store is now closed and this has been a part of my life for years and years. Mm-hmm and. You know, my wife and I, you know, were gonna make it and the community's gonna make it, you know, but I'm just really saddened and I'm really saddened to lose all of my customers and my friends that I've known for years.

And this is my life. And, and I think most people feel that way. Mm-hmm it is their life. It is their hometown. These are people that you've known for years and years, and you develop these relationships with, and it is just sad. It's. Too sad, you know, to do all this. And then you know them on a personal level, some of the pharmacists too, and what they're going through.

And then now, then the life changes that they're gonna have to go through and what they, what are they gonna do now when it's, this is not really when they plan to close their store or to end this chapter of their life and have to go forward and do something else and figure out what they're gonna do now, you know, they weren't ready to retire yet.

They weren't ready. To start doing all these different things, so, right. What's it doing to all of them? You know, it's really sad, you know, to see all this. 

[00:25:04] Mike Koelzer, Host: Right. How, how about you, Terry? What what's was, was sadness your main emotion or, 

[00:25:10] Terry Forshee: Well, I think it, it, it vacillates between that and just anger, uh, yeah, anger, right, exactly.

You know, I had a vision when I came outta pharmacy school and I'll tell you, this is. Good podcast. I love your show in doing this because I actually love the business part of Pharmac. That was my focus. When I came at my vision was to 

[00:25:31] Mike Koelzer, Host: have, well, Terry Terry, the, one of the reasons I have to only focus on the business is because I'm too stupid to talk about the science part of it.

So , it's, it's a great love, but also you also, you gotta play with the hands you're you're 

[00:25:44] Terry Forshee: dealt. Oh yeah. And well, and I, and of course I preach of these buying groups and everything out there all the time. Now, quit, quit, quit doing CE. You know, you get CE anywhere to do it, help your people stay in business, you know?

Yeah. Uh, to do that, but I've isolated myself from that. I really wanted to control this market. I, and, and you probably don't know about it in, in this, this part of the world, but there were several regional, uh, pharmacy chains, the, the Brunos down in, in Alabama. The, uh, missing one Angela out of Marietta, Georgia that, uh, Dunaway France, Dunaway just closed a major bunch of there's.

I admired when, when I, when yeah, and I, I just, I admired these, these regional chains that we're doing. That's what I envisioned of myself with Chattanooga, Cleveland, Dalton, and the surrounding area. Gotcha. Gotcha. Being a nice regional chain. And that, that basically disappeared in a, um, Probably a six month timeframe that I knew.

Yeah. I knew it was coming. And so my vision had to change. And so, as I said, we sold off one of our busiest stores for the sole purpose of taking me out of the salary structure of these other entities and giving me three years to reinvent, uh, Cherokee pharmacy. And, and that, that's how I was able to find all of these, these, uh, hormone replacements.

And, uh, take charge and all these, these markets that we, at the end of our time in independent pharmacy, that's what we were doing. You know, we were, we were, uh, meeting a lot of needs and we had sh we basically had shifted our. Uh, it's the over end of the clinical market, uh, immunization and stuff, you 

[00:27:27] Mike Koelzer, Host: know?

So, so, so 98 comes along. Yep. You close down, you drop 25% business and that's certainly, that's certainly people profit, 

[00:27:36] Terry Forshee: profit the business. Yeah. But we weren't making yeah. Yeah. 

[00:27:39] Mike Koelzer, Host: Which, which is, which is almost worse. Yeah. You know? Uh, so yeah. And so many of our, of our, um, Brothers and sisters in pharmacy right now are going through that very thing with the DIR fees or whatever you wanna call it.

It's just a loss of, it's a loss of profit, however you wanna slice it. Right? So during that time, then you and, uh, Angela sit back and you say, all right, I'm gonna take myself out of this. And you budgeted that and gave yourself like a three year window to say something has to happen in this. Time period.

Did you force, did you actually plan that yes. Like that? 

[00:28:16] Terry Forshee: Yes, I did. That's 

exactly 

[00:28:18] Mike Koelzer, Host: what I did. All right. So I, I know it ends or it doesn't end, but it, a big part of that was the take charge, but take me through then that three years. So you finally removed yourself from the bench. 

[00:28:31] Terry Forshee: I went to more seminars.

And, uh, CE programs and, and search, you know, the internet really? Yeah, it got, I mean, it's old, oh, we are now, you know, internet is just kind of coming out. And so I'm right around there. Yeah. I began to search everything out and I found, you know, immunization beginning to pop up and, and very, uh, fortunately Tennessee was one of the first ones that.

Uh, I began to step forward. Our association was led by Tom Sharp at that time. And man, he, he, he, he took it in and, and we had to change. And so I was able to start doing immunizations. Well, we pushed the envelope. We were doing, you know, anything we could do. We did pediatric flu shots. We were doing, uh, uh, six weeks, uh, immunizations.

I mean, we did anything that we were allowed to do by law, which was pretty much anything in Tennessee. So then we did that. Then we were already compounded with PCCA. Uh, honestly I never liked the mechanical part of compounding, but I loved the counseling part of compound. So Angela being a nurse and, and entering into, uh, give her age away here, but entering into Perimenopause and, and doing that, 

[00:29:41] Mike Koelzer, Host: she kinda, she kinda forced me.

She kinda forced me. I'm gonna give you your chance, Angela. You're gonna come back. We're gonna get him 

[00:29:48] Terry Forshee: back. Yeah. She forced 

[00:29:50] Angela Forshee: me years that did make it worse. And so I did force him to learn it about compounding because well, we, I said, you're gonna do it or somebody else is, or we're. Believe me, my mood did not improve my disposition with a three day migraine that got worse and worse.

So he was like, okay, okay, I'm gonna do something. I'm gonna do something. so. 

[00:30:12] Mike Koelzer, Host: well, and I, and, and I don't know, and I don't know about you guys, but sometimes when business is going well, and you know, we're all dealing with personalities as staff and all that. And sometimes you don't maybe wanna ruffle the feathers or rock the boat, but when you're, when you're faced with something like you're doing, uh, Terry in those three years, you're like, We're doing this and we're doing it now.

It almost makes management easier 

in some regard. 

[00:30:36] Terry Forshee: Well, it does. And 

[00:30:37] Mike Koelzer, Host: that's, 

[00:30:37] Terry Forshee: that's one of the biggest, 

[00:30:38] Mike Koelzer, Host: uh, 

[00:30:39] Terry Forshee: mistakes. I feel like independent pharmacists are making it right now. 

[00:30:43] Mike Koelzer, Host: You know, we talking 

[00:30:44] Terry Forshee: Well, you know, I'm gonna have to talk to my staff and see if I can get them on board. It's a cop out. 

[00:30:51] Mike Koelzer, Host: You make, there's not gonna, there's 

not gonna be on board if you don't do it.

[00:30:54] Terry Forshee: Exactly. And, and your staff will follow what cap D you know, if you've got, let's just, Hey, Let's just get down in real life here. If, if you're at a pharmacy and you've got a pharmacist on staff that refuses to be involved in clinical services and doing anything besides dispensing, Hey, there's a lot more out there right now that you better be bringing on because right.

You know, I mean they know deep down, you can't keep paying a pharmacist to the spin. Not gonna happen. No, I had to let no, I had to let go of a Pharmac. Um, at, you know, when I started down this track, cause they just absolutely came out of a chain background. They weren't interested in doing anything but dispensing and that's what it came down to.

And so I had to make those decisions, but it was for the betterment and ultimately my staff loved all the clinical stuff we did, whether it was the hormone counseling. Uh, yeah. Which was the first thing. Because we were already doing compound work. Then it was the, the immunizations, because we got the right to, to do that finally through, uh, one of my, my compounding meetings that I went to, I met a guy named to Breslin who had this fledgling company take charge that he was, was out there pushing into physician practices and things, and they weren't ready.

They were making a, I mean, you gotta think, put yourself back in 98, 99, physicians were making a ton of money. It hadn't hit them yet. They were five to seven years behind us with it. And so he was beating his head against the wall. I didn't wanna do this. They didn't believe it. Yeah, no reason. No reason to wait.

Anyway, they didn't want to talk to him about it. Hey, just push yourself away from the table. That's the answer, you know? Yeah. And that's what they looked at. And so, but once I heard this guy talk, uh, I'll tell you, this is the other thing. It, it, I, I talked to Tom Breslin at dinner. One evening came. And that was over Friday night, came back.

This is at a con is at a convention CCAs annual conference came back and on Monday, a buddy of mine down in Chattanooga, one of the biggest compounds, um, anywhere Don tally, uh, at Lakeside pharmacy in Chattanooga. He and I got on the phone with Tom Breslin and we listened to what he had to say, no fancy video.

This was a phone call, no webinar, no anything. He told us what he was doing and his vision. And Don Talley. And I both said, Hey, we're in. And so in 30 minutes and a dinner, uh, we flopped out $5,000 and said, we're ready to go. And so, and 

[00:33:25] Mike Koelzer, Host: this is still focused on 

[00:33:26] Terry Forshee: physicians. Yes. And I spent literally the next 10 years convincing Tom that the Pharmac.

Where, where is the answer to this situation? I tried to be the example. I spent a lot of my own money out there speaking, uh, for him, uh, in these processes. And he and I became dear friends and all of a sudden, uh, you know, he, in 2005, I be, he passed away very suddenly and I was left too. And 

[00:33:57] Mike Koelzer, Host: so, because you had bought this, you had bought this from another gentleman.

He didn't become a three way partner. No, no, no. 

[00:34:03] Terry Forshee: And, and I hadn't done anything with it at that point. No, no, no. We were just, we were just a client of 

[00:34:07] Angela Forshee: he as, 

[00:34:09] Terry Forshee: just as a, as a clinical services. Yes. Oh, oh, 

[00:34:11] Mike Koelzer, Host: oh, you were, you were client of the gentleman you 

[00:34:13] Terry Forshee: had dinner with, but when, when he passed away, suddenly I was left with the decision, dude.

I really believe in one of us. Did I really believe we needed to be able to produce outcomes? To get paid. Did I really believe that pharmacists were the answer or had I just been, you know, running my mouth because Tom's money was at stake, not mine. And so, uh, and he, we, we had about 300 pharmacies around the country that were doing take charge at the time.

Uh, just, he had just been I'd helped him get those. And, and you were one of the, you were one of 

[00:34:45] Mike Koelzer, Host: the customers and, and Tom was a gentleman that started it. Correct? 

[00:34:50] Terry Forshee: And gotcha. And, but again, he never understood computers, not a knock on it. He was, he was literally two decades ahead of his time in thinking about, about, about a, uh, I think he was one of the first people in the country that linked obesity, uh, and, and diabetes.

Uh, yeah, right. I think he was one of them, and, and he wasn't, he wasn't even a clinical person by, by job profession. And, but, but he was the first one that understood that. And he helped transform along with, with, uh, several pharmacists around the country that we all became very good friends and tried to help him.

And so when he died, I was kinda left with a situation. Do I throw this away that I was already making good money off of. Or do I put my money where my mouth is. 

[00:35:39] Mike Koelzer, Host: And, and by this time, you, by this time you had, um, physicians, or this was, 

[00:35:46] Angela Forshee: we had pharmacy customers and physicians were referring people to us and we were seeing patients in our own pharmacy.

[00:35:51] Mike Koelzer, Host: Gotcha. Right. Gotcha. Yeah. And, but, but at first, at, at first it started as a program that physicians were going to use for their own patients. Correct. So was it always to, oh, I see. And then it transferred over to the right. Recommending pharmacists. 

[00:36:06] Terry Forshee: All of our lessons that we still use today, by the way, were pretty much written by dieticians and physicians.

And that was the market that Tom wanted to go into. But, they weren't. 

[00:36:16] Mike Koelzer, Host: And I'm not. Okay. So, so, so, so you, so that first night you were on the phone with somebody else, that was just another customer along with Tom, right? Correct. All right, Tom dies. Sorry to hear that. In 2005, there's 300 customers. How are you any different than the other 300?

Why do you step? 

[00:36:38] Terry Forshee: Not really different, except that I, uh, I was really trying to help Tom. I really believed in what he was doing and I was trying to get probably 300 pharmacies. He had, I was probably instrumental in 200 plus of them. Oh, I see. Coming off. Gotcha. And I got nothing for it. I promise this right.

I got no what, 1 cent of commission. I was spending money, traveling and meeting with them. Uh, associations and all, all my own money. Do you just believe in it? I don't have any money. I just believed in it. And I believed it was the answer then like I do now, it is a real answer for, for, for community pharmacy.

And, I just, I, I was convinced then, and I'm still convinced today that this is a lifeline for our profession too, to stay afloat and to thrive, not just stay afloat, to thrive, you know? It's again right today, as we said, it's a hundred billion dollar industry cash, but by the end of, uh, the next five years, it's probably gonna get close to a trillion dollars.

I mean, right. The need is there and people are dying. Because no one is helping them understand that what they're doing with their lifestyle is killing them and pharmacists can help. 

[00:37:52] Mike Koelzer, Host: So, Terry, how do you come in then? Tom, Tom passes away. How do you come in then? And then be able to take this over? Do you work with his estate and set up a, a, an agreement or a sale 

[00:38:05] Terry Forshee: or something or yes, they, they, you know, his wife really.

Wasn't interested and, and she, she no longer wanted to run the company. And, uh, I was honest with you. I was selfish. I went up and, and I wanted to, of course, I went to his funeral and, and, uh, his wife, Dale had become, you know, I'd become close to them and, and I basically just wanted to buy all the inventory and, and the materials and everything else to keep my own practice going to be.

Oh, OK. If I have to be blunt with it, I just wanted to keep it, I was making a lot of money off of it. And I wanted to keep it going, but as I got it, I started getting calls from these pharmacists around the country saying, what do we do? Are you gonna, yeah. Are you gonna put this back out? Are you gonna do that?

And so then it really became about 90 days of soul searching, uh, and Angela and I really prayed through it, talking through it. What do we really want to do, uh, with this? Do we wanna invest the money that it takes? I've been trying to tell him for years you needed computer software. You, you needed mm-hmm, , you're getting the data, but, but you're not doing anything with it.

Mm-hmm . So for insurers to pay, uh, for these associations to buy in, we gotta have data. And so I pulled it off the market. After doing that, I decided to take over the company, I pulled it off of the market and, uh, actually began to restructure it and reengineer. For independent pharmacy. And so we spent about three and a half years with all of it off the market.

Pharmacists calling me on a weekly basis if not daily basis. And we developed software and we reintroduced it to the marketplace in 2007, I think. Um, 

[00:39:54] Mike Koelzer, Host: Okay, so did your, so when you were in 1998, when you gave yourself three years to make some turnaround or something, the take charge program was instrumental in you saying, all right.

I did my duty from 2 19 98 to 2001. You, in your mind, you succeeded by saying yes, I did find something that's beneficial and this will make some money. 

[00:40:20] Terry Forshee: Yes. I replaced mine. With clinical services you did? Yes. Uh, wow. And, and, and I, and from then on, I never really, none of my money, uh, none of my salary ever came out of the dispensing process.

It was all from immunizations and diabetes, counseling, hormone counseling, uh, and take charge, uh, which incorporated all of those. 

[00:40:39] Mike Koelzer, Host: And did you do that and, and you still had a number of at least a few stores remaining? Yeah. We still had three pharmacies. Yeah. And did you do that at all? Three of those? Yes.

And it's a good way to hide from Angela. It, it 

[00:40:53] Terry Forshee: was, and, and because she was always yelling at me because I was giving my time away. So, you know, yeah, 

[00:40:59] Mike Koelzer, Host: I know, I know that story, 

[00:41:02] Terry Forshee: you know, and she, she really was instrumental really in, in making me face the fact that here, I'm talking about pharmacists doing these.

But here I am. I'm giving my time away too. I'm good. Just like they are. And, and then once, once it, it really, once I listened to her and, and, uh, , you know, unfortunately this is now recorded, but once I started doing that, it became easy. I mean, I had a menu of services out in my pharmacy that people could ask for.

Uh, you know, but I, I swear to you, Mike, it's so frustrating and, and I know it's in our DNA, but, but I never will forget this a few years after I was counseling a lady on, uh, On, um, bone density, you know, and she was sitting there and at the end, see, is 

[00:41:48] Angela Forshee: That's not crazy? Is that not the craziest thing? Mike people pay for what they want, what they need, what they want to get.

It's like, I tell these guys, these, the males, I don't have to tell the females, see about these fingernails. People pay for what they want and they don't hesitate. They will do it. They will pay for what they need. 

[00:42:09] Mike Koelzer, Host: Oh, Angela, don't get me started. I was down at my daughter's. I was at my daughter's wedding.

Um, two weeks ago, my first child, I had 10 children. My first child out of the 10 got married down in North Carolina and I. I see the credit card bills that come through on the email. And while I'm down there, I've got time to think about the business, you know, a week away and things like that. And I see this bill come through for like $440 from nail place.

Exactly. And I thought I'm in the wrong business here. Well, yeah. And the thing is, is, is, you know, that psychology, if you're not Target's that what 

[00:42:50] Angela Forshee: kinda service am I? Getting Isn't really a, and, and this is the thing too, when you go, even when you go to a nail salon and these pharmacists say, my customers are too poor, they don't have any money.

They won't pay for this. Believe me, when you go to the nail salon, you get all socioeconomic classes there. And if they want their nails done, they will pay the money for what they deem to be important.

[00:43:14] Mike Koelzer, Host: But the devil's advocate on that. And we all know this, that we all know that the steak or bowl of ice cream I had last night is not great for me, but if I can get nails or new glasses or something like that, that's immediate payoff with, oh, look how nice your, your beautiful nails are. And I'm talking to Angela right here, not Terry

All right. So, so in 2007, Do I have that date, right? That you re-released. Yeah. What did you do, what happened during those three years? Did you have outside help or did you guys just think about it or what happened during that time of re um, renewing the product? Let's say, 

[00:43:55] Terry Forshee: no, I, well, I basically did it myself.

I, you know, because I knew I understood what it was all about. Um, right. But again, we did bring in physicians and, and, uh, again, some food technologists and all these kinds of things that we needed. Um, you know, to, to create, and, and again, I hired a company to, to write software, uh, you know, I mean, all these things that we had and, and, and when I did, I'd have to teach them take charge because they couldn't write software when they didn't understand what we were doing, you know?

Right, right. So we went through that, you know, we went through that process to do that. So yes, I had a lot of help to do it. And I'll be honest, very blessed. I mean, in Cleveland, Tennessee, That, uh, you know, our, our, our, the person that helped us develop our lifestyle IQ, computer, she, she was brought here for, by Maytag to be, uh, a metal gist and an engineer.

Oh. And she basically took what I, I told her I needed, did the research and, and built this computer for, and we're manufacturing it right here in the United States, by in fact, your neighbor up there, South Dakota. And, uh, so we fought very hard to be able to make it in this country and to do all of it. And, uh, it's, you know?

Yeah. I had a lot of help. I had a lot of help, but, but I still had to explain to these people what we were trying to do. 

[00:45:14] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah, exactly. Um, a few more broader questions, but as far as the next step, uh, Terry and Angela, if a pharmacist or. You know, I say a pharmacist is listening. What is their next step that they can take for, to, to explore more of the, um, you know, the product 

[00:45:36] Terry Forshee: and so on, the best way that we have found.

And we spend a lot of time doing this. Uh, we conduct, you know, 10 to 12 webinars every week and I'm talking live one on one, you know, uh, to do it because I wanna be able to address their individual needs and, and. And they just need to contact us. We have, you know, our toll free number, uh, 807 8 2 3 4 4 4.

Uh, they can at Terry four CR on Twitter, uh, email DT, four C take charge, rx.com. Anyway, they can, can, can and take charge as a Facebook page. Anyway, they can get in touch with us. The big thing is they just need to decide it's time to do something different. And I will tell you since January of this year, it is like the light switch went on.

And we are constantly now talking to pharmacists, uh, around the country. And, but I still get the thing. I had one Friday, contact me outta the blue from New York and, uh, you know, how, how blood and, uh, To the point, uh, New Yorkers are . She was no different. She called up and asked, well, what, what is this?

And I said, well, it's an education program of education. That's all I got out. And she says, Nope, my patients are not interested in anything like that. And I said like, they don't eat. I mean, what, you know, they're not interested in eating her, well, what do you mean? And I said, that's what we're talking about here.

We're talking about teaching them how to eat. Oh, no, they're not into programming things. And is it? Yeah, she thought we were a, yeah, we were a, a diet product, a weight loss product or something, and that's right. And never gave me one chance to explain, but those people are not gonna be around. I'm just telling you, they're not gonna be around.

I know it. So we are catering to the people that want to hear what we have to say, and we will do our little staff here. We will do anything. We. To, to show them what we believe, the future is. And that doesn't mean everybody's gonna agree with it, but, but at least give us, if they don't have 30 minutes to spare, they're, they're probably not gonna be doing anything but dispensing anyway.

Yeah. If 

[00:47:44] Mike Koelzer, Host: you're not trying to do that, that's nice. And in fact, that. That goes along with what pharmacists have done where we've always been used to. And that I guess remains the same where people come in and they're looking for the information versus us shoving it down their throat, and you're taking the same business model of them looking you up and, and wanting to at least 

[00:48:05] Terry Forshee: learn about it.

Well, and our, our, our slogan, this, your patients are paying somebody to help them lose weight. You're just not, they're just, they're just not paying. Yeah, that's right. And, and that's, and that's the truth. And so if we, if we approach it, you know, again, our system has gotten so refined. Now basically, if you can get a patient through the first three weeks, they're gonna finish the six months, nine months, 12 months, whatever it ends up being, they're gonna stay with that pharmacist and our educational process.

Now, again, it is so refined that it only takes five to seven minutes per patient per. My appointment for a pharmacist to do it. So time is no longer an excuse, uh, for them, uh, we're putting this program in with no upfront cost. So, and a matter of fact, if they follow our process, if they get one patient, they're never gonna have to take any money out of their budget to pay or take charge.

Good point. So we have removed every obstacle except what's between them. 

[00:49:05] Mike Koelzer, Host: That's a great point. I like that. I like that method. Tell me, um, how much do you guys, as far as you're concerned? Not with your personal take charge in your stores. How much time are you spending roughly on, on a weekly average with the bigger picture?

I know you said you're doing webinars. Um, what other, how, how much time do you have to spend or get to spend assuming you enjoy it with, with the program? Not including what you're hands on in, 

[00:49:41] Terry Forshee: in your stores. Most of my time now is on the big picture things. Uh, I, yeah, I do enjoy it. I really believe with everything within me.

I believe that taking charge has the opportunity to do for every other practice, what it did for me and transform my mindset and my belief that people will pay you for your knowledge and expertise and that as a profession, we can have an impact. And once we gain a foot. In the weight loss, lifestyle, obesity market with it, we won't be moved.

We can control this market for the next two generations if we can get in there right now, because all it is is teaching patients what they want to learn. You know, if they're diabetic, they wanna know how to eat healthily. If they're a, uh, a, uh, a baby boomer going into their sixties now or late.

They wanna know how to live healthy for the next 20 years so that they're not ending up in a nursing home and dying of premature death. We, we have, yeah. Right. We have the answer. For what society is looking right. Mike and I, and I 

[00:50:51] Angela Forshee: wish people, the pharmacists would look out when they see their customers come in.

Yeah. And see them ask for the complete package, not just as the pills are filling, but for all these other services and all the things they can do to even get them off of some of these medications, which they need to be. Because, you know, we have the tools too, and the information. To give them and the literature that they can hand their patients when they're dispensing and counseling them with whether it's blood pressure, whether it's GERD, whether it's heart disease, whatever it is that they can help them.

And they need to see themselves as being there for their patients for these clinical services, because you know, the chains are seeing themselves that way now. And that's where they're gearing them. And if the community pharmacists don't see themselves that way, they're not gonna be there anymore to do that.

You know, and as a nurse too, it's upsetting too, Terry's talking about the PA people getting older with all these, uh, disease states, but you know, what's even more sad in a way too, are our kids that are growing up. You said you had 10 kids. You know, these kids are growing up with obesity now. And already having so many health related problems because of obesity.

You know, I'm a nurse, my daughter's a pediatric nurse. And you know, when you're 13 and 14 now and getting your gallbladder taken out, that's just something unheard of that people didn't used to see, you know? And now then the dots and the, and you know, all the fast foods and yeah, that's right. Like the kids eat now, you know, parents need to be taught to and they need to understand, you know, that obesity, how serious it is that if they have.

All of this fat, you know, on the outside that same, fat's gonna be on the inside of those kids, you know, with their hearts and their livers and gallbladders. And, you know, that's, it's, it's really sad, you know, to see all that. Yeah, for sure. It is an education process and it's, you know, it's not just, you know, for them to lose weight, but it's teaching, you know, the patients as they go through this, but I see it too, you know, maybe even the future is, you know, classes and teaching people just how to eat healthy, you know?

For prevention for future things that are gonna be developing.

[00:53:03] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah, that makes sense. A a, a few, um, um, kind of closing a, a few, uh, business lifestyle questions for you. What business wise, uh, any part of the business kind of keeps you guys up at night? What are your, um, conversations around concerns, huh? 

[00:53:26] Terry Forshee: Well, obviously we've invested. You know, our retirements and life savings and everything else into this company.

And, and because, because we believed in it and right. And, um, and, and I believe we're, we are beginning to see the fruits of, of that, of that labor, but we are seeing, you know, I want my generational pharmacists to, because we are the people that have the relationship and form. Right. But we're seeing a new generational pharmacists come out now.

I really want to do clinical services. They're they're putting this program into physician practice. They're going to work in a physician clinic. Uh they're uh, they're opening up office based practices and that's the fastest growing part of what we're seeing today. But, uh, but that's what keeps me up.

I'm In it, every time and, and it's every day a pharmacist is selling out and closing and we, yeah, right. We, we hear about it. We see it. And, and, and again, That's what I look at. It, it, it really does hurt me to see that. Yeah. Because I know, I know what pharmacy means to people. Yeah. 

[00:54:32] Mike Koelzer, Host: What, um, if, if right now someone said, uh, take charge was.

Big success beyond your wildest dreams, but they said you need to take a, uh, a three year sabbatical and not be involved. What, what would you two be doing at this point in your life? 

[00:54:57] Angela Forshee: as I'll let you answer that psycho sabbatical, 

[00:55:00] Mike Koelzer, Host: since she's gonna get her way anyways. Yeah.

Yeah, that, you know, like, like you can't do it for a few years. Money's not an issue. What are you gonna be doing with your time? And I've heard everything from, you know, traveling around the world, to starting other businesses or something. What do you think you guys would be doing for three years? 

[00:55:21] Terry Forshee: Traveling?

Well well, and also he doesn't want her to answer her grandkids. You know, we have nine, we have nine. So we're, we're kind of up to you with, with your kids. Well, had four. Congratulations. Well, we only have, yeah. They know how to reproduce, but only, but they, they translated into nine grandkids, 11 and 11 and under.

Awesome. So our whole summer, we just now realize summer's ending and we've been going, we've been traveling everywhere to wake up for a long trip. Right. And, uh, you know, being with our grandpa, taking our grandkids on vacations and, you know, and that's what it would be. That's what she wants to do. 

[00:55:56] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. So maybe a combination of both is going somewhere for a week and then a week back.

And so on, of course you guys don't have to, you don't have to think about your winners. Like we do. How are we going in winter? Because you're already in some thinking 

[00:56:09] Terry Forshee: about our Detroit lion, you know? So, uh, 

[00:56:13] Mike Koelzer, Host: my, my poor dad, he, he passed, you know, but he. Shoot, you know, he, I, I forget the NFL, but they always say the lines were like 50 years of yeah.

But police tell losers before the NFL came before 

[00:56:23] Terry Forshee: I 

[00:56:23] Mike Koelzer, Host: see him in the super bowl. Well, my dad did, you know, he passed, he, he passed with only like one. I'm not even sure if it was a playoff game at the time. I think it was one, uh, wild card game or something like that over 50 years. So that's 

[00:56:36] Terry Forshee: Well, I'm a Georgia bull.

I was up there as fast as I could to help out, you know? Yes. 

[00:56:41] Mike Koelzer, Host: Do, do you have any, um, Are you saying that just with my regard, Terry, you, you followed them at all for he's 

[00:56:51] Terry Forshee: a line fan. Oh, oh, oh, you are? Yeah. My why I, uh, well, it goes back. You're too young to know this, but if they had a runny back a, uh, a half back then named Terry Barr, which his name was, I know the name.

Well, his name was Terry and, uh, you know, I used to collect sports stuff. And I saw the name Terry, and it was the only Terry in the NFL. And I started following lines. My brother, uh, rich, obviously he is Richie 's pet with red skin, excuse the bears, the bears. So we were enemies. So anyway, that's how I got started, but I followed, you know, watching direct TV had their, their, you know, NFL Sunday ticket had a big dish.

You know, watch every game Barry Sanders played, you know, and just get my heart broken every year. You know, I ain't, 

[00:57:42] Mike Koelzer, Host: no, I ain't no genius, but, um, but I could probably charge for this advice. And I would say you might wanna switch teams. 

[00:57:50] Terry Forshee: Well, I'm working on the Cleveland Browns now, so see, you know, at least they're got hope, you know, good luck.

Well, I'm hoping. Yeah, I know. I'm hoping Matt can pull it off before he throws. Yeah, he's a great guy. Hopefully he's a great guy. Yeah. Came from my university. We just sent a tight one up there, uh, NoDa to us this year. So I'm trying to get a bunch of bulldogs up there and I think they'll pull us through, 

[00:58:13] Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, God bless you.

We need help outside the state because that's the owners inside the state and aren't doing it. Hey, pleasure meeting you. We'll be pleased to keep in touch. And we'll, we'll talk 

[00:58:25] Terry Forshee: again. All right. Talk soon. Thank you, Mike. I appreciate it. Thank you.