The Importance of Advocacy | Hillary Blackburn, PharmD

This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.

[00:00:12] Mike Koelzer, Host: You're listening to the business pharmacy podcast with me, your host, Mike, ER.

Well, hello, Hillary. 

[00:00:28] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Hello. Great to be with you, Mike. 

[00:00:30] Mike Koelzer, Host: Hey, pleasure to have you on yours. Uh, boy, this is a relatively new podcast for me, but you're an old pro 

[00:00:39] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: that's. So this, this August marks the, um, Have been doing the talk to your pharmacist podcast for two years, uh, which is exciting because, uh, almost at the 100 episode mark, um, I've been really committed to sharing, uh, success stories about pharmacy and, um, yeah, it, it does, it takes a lot of, uh, diligence and passion.

Um, to be committed to that for, 

[00:01:10] Mike Koelzer, Host: um, the song. Yeah. Cause we all know the slope of a podcast is there's a lot of volume, one episode, one podcast, and that's the last we hear from people. So you're a hero in my book. Well, Hillary, for those that don't know, you take us back to, I guess when pharmacy became part of your life and kind of to catch us up then to where we are now.

[00:01:35] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Uh, sure. So I grew up in, uh, the Mississippi Delta in a small town and attended the university of Mississippi as an early entry pharmacy student. Uh, so what that means is as a high school senior, I was admitted, uh, two pharmacy schools with, you know, contingency that I maintained my grades and, and all of those certain requirements.

Um, and so, uh, as a. Junior, I entered pharmacy school. Now they have, uh, expanded that, um, initial time to, uh, three years of prereqs, um, from the two, but I was able to kind of get right in, um, there, which was great. Uh, so, um, while I was at Ole miss, um, got really plugged in, uh, with I've always had a passion for, um, Advocacy and, and policy was on the associated student body as a, a pharmacy, uh, representative, and actually went up to DC and interned on the hill for a Mississippi Senator, Senator Wicker.

Who's still in office today and got the, the, you know, DC bug, if you will, and wanted to go back for. Pharmacy. And, uh, you know, we all know pharmacy is a small world and one of the missing alums was the director for the office of pharmacy affairs. And I was able to intern there, the following two summers. And I think people got a little confused.

They kept thinking that I actually lived in DC but I just wanted to spend all my summers up there. Yeah. Um, which was fun. Got exposed to the three 40 B programs. Um, and just exploring a little bit more about public health and how to operationalize a national program. Um, and a, and a passion for caring for the safety net and the underserved, which, um, circles back with my current work.

But. Um, yeah, throughout pharmacy school, I really sought to have a diversity of rotations to see, um, all of the different avenues, uh, of pharmacy. And I, I remember vividly as a fourth year, um, you know, you select your rotations for your last year and you are really not quite sure exactly what you're gonna be getting into, but I remember being.

So excited, um, as a fourth year student to see, um, the unique opportunities that we have as pharmacists to be involved in the patient care process, whether it's working in the ambulatory care clinic. I loved being in, um, the hypertension clinic down at the university of Mississippi medical center. Love being in the ER.

Um, and really just dove into those clinical rotations and pursued a residency, um, and then made it to Nashville and, uh, have worked. 

[00:04:40] Mike Koelzer, Host: What, what brought you to, what brought you to Nashville? I'm sorry? Did you start there in Nashville or did you? Uh, 

[00:04:45] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: no, I, so all of this was, was in Mississippi. Uh, did my residency with the University of Mississippi medical center.

And was 

[00:04:53] Mike Koelzer, Host: your childhood Nashville or what brought you there then? What brought you 

[00:04:55] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: to Nashville? No, I, um, You know, I, I grew up in Mississippi, uh, in a small town there. I spent all my time there. And I think being exposed to, uh, DC had lots of friends from Dallas and Austin. Uh, I knew that I wanted to be in a, a little bit of a bigger city.

And okay. A lot of Ole Miss people were, you know, in Nashville and actually I was born in Tennessee, so, oh, okay. Sure. Had some Tennessee ties, but right. Have been here for seven years, um, and met my husband here. So we will be in Nashville, which is definitely an, uh, a great booming city and a great spot for healthcare.

Yeah, 

[00:05:43] Mike Koelzer, Host: good spot for healthcare, huh? With the, the growth and size of it and so on. 

[00:05:47] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Well, it's actually, uh, a real hub for healthcare. You've got, uh, the largest private hospitals in the country are home based here. So HCA, um, CHS LifePoint. Um, so with all of that, uh, uh, you know, hospital. Uh, pros you've also got a lot of startups that have been, uh, generated.

I think there's over 400 different healthcare startups in Nashville 

[00:06:17] Mike Koelzer, Host: really? Is, is that because of its uh, relatively central location in the country or, you know, versus far east or far west or. Um, I wonder what brings everybody there? 

[00:06:29] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Well, you know, the bill first who Senator Fri, uh, was, uh, governor of Tennessee then became a Senate leader, uh, majority leader, and he's a physician by training.

And so I guess he, and, and his, you know, colleagues had actually founded HCA. Hm back in the day. Um, but yeah, there, and then, um, then I kind of snowballed, it seems. Yeah. And, actually Belmont university, which has one of the three pharmacy schools in Nashville, um, there, uh, founder of the business school, um, I can't recall his first name, but NA, uh, was, was a, a high up with HCA.

So, Hmm. Just lots of, of, um, you know, opportunity Vanderbilt here. Yeah. I forgot to mention Vanderbilt, which of course has national recognition, right. As a leader. Um, so yeah, that, that, that's neat. 

[00:07:27] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. It's fun. So, so you're, so back to Nashville, you went. and what'd you start up there then? I mean, you, I, yeah, I believe you were in retail there at the time, right?

Community pharmacy, 

[00:07:38] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: or, yeah. Yeah. So, uh, for all the new grads, um, you know, you go to school and maybe you do a residency, maybe you don't and it's that kind of anticipation of where do you go next? Uh, cause it is, it is challenging and, and what I'll share. You know, you, you're probably not gonna get your dream job straight out of school.

Um, so, uh, for me, I really thought that I was gonna do hospital pharmacy. I did my residency and was interested in that. Um, but, uh, when I was moving to Nashville, really, the only physicians were staff, pharmacist, physicians, and I didn't wanna, I, I made the decision to go into independent pharmacy. I had.

Um, actually a family friend that owned it. Own independent pharmacy here just outside of Nashville. And it wasn't an open position, but he needed help. Um, just kinda updating his clinical pharmacy services. Sure. Doing, setting up an immunization program. Yeah. Um, going out and, uh, connecting with. You know, potential clients like assisted living.

And so I wore a lot of different hats. Yeah. You 

[00:08:54] Mike Koelzer, Host: kind, you kind of built a spot for yourself that wasn't 

[00:08:57] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: there. Yeah, exactly. And so I think that was, um, you know, a little bit of a leap of faith, but, you know, that's what he said. He was like, Hey, I can get you to Nashville. And he was, um, Really generous in that.

And I was able to, to learn a lot and, you know, get exposed to a couple different things and try, try and, you know, try and succeed or try and fail few 

[00:09:21] Mike Koelzer, Host: things. Right. Well, so then, so you're in, you're in retail for a while. When is your next, um, when and why is your next jump into, um, some of your other endeavors which we'll get into, but what was the impetus for kind of moving on and doing some of this other stuff?

Um, after your time in retail, 

[00:09:47] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Yeah. Well, if you look at my, uh, career path prior to dispensary of hope, it looks a little confusing. Um, because you know, I did retail or independent pharmacy, and then, um, my boss ended up selling cause he owned it for a while. And so I needed to look for a different job and thought that maybe working for a health plan might be interesting.

Learned a lot, uh, learned more in depth about the prior authorization approval and that pharmacists actually are reviewing all of those cases. Um, but, and, you know, working on star ratings, calling physicians, but. There really wasn't a lot of interaction with people. Sure. Um, and not a lot of creativity in the work for me.

It just wasn't a good fit and yeah. Um, why do you know, they ended up being acquired. And so that was another transition point. Yeah. Um, and so I tried mail order, specialty pharmacy, and, um, learned a lot about. Uh, all the different requirements and, and, uh, got licensed in 11 different states as did 

[00:11:08] Mike Koelzer, Host: you have to test 

[00:11:08] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: in all those states?

Oh yeah. Um, geez. So, so there's very, uh, strict, uh, regs, of course, that vary from state to state and you've gotta. 

[00:11:21] Mike Koelzer, Host: Is that the same medical portion, but just different law? Or do you have to actually take the medical portion in all those states also? 

[00:11:30] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: No, it's just the N P J E or the multistate? Um, jurisprudence.

Juris. Yeah. Gotcha. Like ban, which, um, new grads definitely study up on the law exams. Yeah. Because, uh, they are. Not really as fact based. So on Netflix, you pretty much know if you have the right answer or not. Right. But with the N P J E um, it's very situational based and, um, you know, you've you've course studied the law book.

You of course are gonna study that state's regs. Um, but it is very situational. So, um, there are a couple other resources online that I found, uh, little study guides and things. So, 

[00:12:14] Mike Koelzer, Host: um, yeah, it's gotta be hard to keep all those laws straight. Um, and I imagine if I'm the one doing the test, I'm gonna.

I'm gonna make it real tricky by making the questions different that I know are different laws between neighboring states. So that's, that's gotta be a tricky test to take between all those, 

[00:12:36] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: right. Absolutely. Um, and yeah, so I, I use a, uh, service or actually pharmacist letter as the best, uh, method for me to.

Um, keep track of all the different license requirements, because some renew bi-annually some renew annually. Yeah. Right. Uh, yeah. So lot, lots to, to go on with that. Yeah. 

[00:13:03] Mike Koelzer, Host: So that's the mail order you had to take those four. And then, and then when, where on from that you had mentioned your, um, the, um, the. Um, dispensaries of hope.

Mm-hmm what is that? 

[00:13:18] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Right? Yeah. So I actually learned about that while I was, um, working for the independent pharmacy and because patients that were going to, um, a pharmacy that he also owned inside. Centerstone, which is a mental health clinic. Some of those patients were talking about dispensaries of hope when they were having trouble affording their medicine.

And I've always been, um, intrigued in, you know, helping, helping people, uh, particularly those that, um, are underserved, uh, as you know, evidence of our work at HRSA and, uh, just growing up in, uh, the MiFi Delta. And seeing a lot of those patients at UMC. Um, and so I was intrigued about this, you know, what is the dispensation of hope?

I was curious too, so I, um, reached out and, uh, learned about it and offered a volunteer and, um, actually, uh, helped to develop their generic formulary. And did that on a volunteer basis for about two years, just kind of on and off, I've always been really involved in giving back to the community. Um, different, uh, community organizations.

And, uh, they actually got some, a big infusion of funding in 2014 and were able to hire a pharmacist. And so they came knocking at my door. And so just some background for those of you who don't know about dispensary of hope, it's a charitable medication distributor. So just like Cardinal or McKesson or Bergen.

Sure. All of you're familiar with those big three. Of course, there's other smaller ones, more sticks in, et cetera. Um, but we are licensed as a wholesale distributor in all 50 states. Uh, and dispensary hope is the nation's leading charitable medication distributor. Um, since 2012, uh, we've been able to assemble a collaborative of most of the largest.

Um, generic manufacturers and most of the largest health systems who are serving uninsured. And so what we do is we acquire donated medication, uh, from the pharmaceutical companies and then distribute that to communities across the country. So too, um, free clinics, FQHCs, charitable pharmacies, and health system, outpatient pharmacies.

Uh, so that they are able to dispense that to their low income uninsured patients. 

[00:15:56] Mike Koelzer, Host: When I was looking in the, um, the nice YouTube video on that site, it was talking about some of the benefits to the manufacturers mm-hmm and. One of the things that mentioned that caught my eye. Cause I had this question: it said it cut down on their, um, what would you call it?

Incineration costs. Incineration costs. Mm-hmm that got me thinking. What, what kind of drugs are these that would have to be incinerated? Are they shorter, dated or misprints or obviously they're good drugs, but is what, what makes them. You know, either, either go to you or in sinner will, if that's a word, but, but not to be sold.

[00:16:38] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Well, actually, uh, so all of the medications that we have are within date, uh, so usually it's anywhere between nine and 18 months. Um, but what happens in the life cycle of a medication? Um, you know, you just think about supply and demand. So, um, all of these manufacturers are well, think about just the generic industry.

So often you've got multiple manufacturers making lisinopril and, uh, they are gonna make forecasts and try to make as much as they need to sell. And, um, the manufacturer is actually responsible for designating them. Expiration date. And typically we see anywhere from two to 30 years, but when it hits about that one year mark, um, they really can't sell it to the wholesalers anymore.

So yeah, they're running outta time. Some of them are right. So, um, they're either gonna short sell it to one of these secondary ones like anda or something else, right. Or they have to, you know, If they've got a lot of surplus, then it's basically quarantined until six months of dating and actually all meds that before they expire or as they're expired, go to the incinerator.

Uh, so we do have, we've got a lot of waste, um, in the industry, you know, you see a lot of that with, um, long term care and other, um, places. Uh, yeah, so we are able to take any of that surplus medicine and put it to good use. So they do get a tax benefit. Right. Um, and it increases their corporate social responsibility.

That's something that all yeah. Uh, companies are really looking at how they give back? And. So, yeah, I 

[00:18:33] Mike Koelzer, Host: would imagine that if they, if they run out, they're gonna lose a lot more money in sales, then they lose by having a surplus. Once they take the tax advantage and the corporate Goodwill and that kind 

[00:18:45] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: of staff.

Right. And actually, I just learned this here recently. The manufacturers have in their agreement with the wholesalers, a failure to supply clause. Oh, is that right? So when they do not supply, when they, when they fail to supply, due to a drug shortage, or, you know, maybe they don't have enough, um, they actually have to pay the distributor.

To purchase it from somewhere else. Oh, right. Yeah. So they're covering the cost for the distributor. They're losing money and they're covering the cost for the distributor to get it elsewhere. 

[00:19:22] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. And I'm sure that price isn't cheap once the other company knows the other one ran out. Right. 

[00:19:27] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Exactly. So 

[00:19:28] Mike Koelzer, Host: what was that about the six months you were saying, you said that when it hits only six months left, they, they quarantine it or.

[00:19:36] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Yeah, cuz they can never no longer sell it. They can't do anything with it then. Yeah. You're kinda sitting there six months to expiration and they're sending it on. 

[00:19:45] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah, that makes sense. So, well that's cool. So, so, um, It's, it's a really fascinating, um, organization and very well put together because a lot of the times I'll go on some websites, kind of looking at different show things in that.

And this one is this one's really sharp and it got the point across real easily that you are certainly a, um, national organiz. 

[00:20:11] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Yeah, we, yeah, so we, we serve, I believe 34 states across the country and over 170 dispensing partners. And it ranges from large systems like Ascension, um, all the way down to charitable pharmacies.

So, um, yeah, it's, it's really amazing. And, and it's really a, uh, the pharmacist. I think the hero out of all of this, because of course we are, you know, providing this medicine to patients that would otherwise go without. So yeah. You know, a lot of times, um, they're, we're piecing together different programs, so right.

You know, you've got three 40 B, you've got manufacturer coupon cards, you've got the $4 list. Right. Um, you know, a lot of times hospitals are. And they have a charity care program. And, and if a patient, um, has, you know, meets certain financial criteria. The hospital will often just provide them their medicine, but it's only that one time discharge.

Um, sure. So we're able to provide it in a consistent fashion so that those patients can come back in. And so when they do have high blood pressure or diabetes or, um, Even mental health, they're able to be managed on an outpatient basis. And so we're, um, in turn saving the hospital system often, um, $2,000 per patient life.

[00:21:40] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah, I'd imagine so. So Hillary, is that your full-time job at this, at this point? Yeah, so 

[00:21:48] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: I am full time. Uh, dispensaries of hope have been there. It will be four years, November of 2019. 

[00:21:55] Mike Koelzer, Host: Wow. Mm-hmm that's great. Well then apparently at nighttime, you work on a few other things being the two of 'em being your, um, your websites of drug information and NA natural drug information.

Do I have that? Right. And, and, yeah. And is this, um, and some consulting and things like that. So when do you, when do you fit this stuff in. 

[00:22:25] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Yeah. You know, I have always been a, I've always had to be good at time management. So growing up, um, I. Love athletics still and, and really, uh, love to do exercise in fitness and, and my husband and I do triathlons.

If anyone follows along on Instagram to talk to your pharmacist, you'll see some of my. Triathlon post. What, uh, 

[00:22:53] Mike Koelzer, Host: What are you doing? I'm gonna, I'm gonna guess the Olympics. Hopefully not the fold. , 

[00:22:59] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: you know, usually we stick to this, the sprints, 

[00:23:02] Mike Koelzer, Host: yeah. Sprint. So a mile swim, three miles run. And about 12, 12, 12 bites, 12 

[00:23:09] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: to 17.

Yeah, usually, usually it's about a half mile swim, but for me, I like the longer swim because I'm a swimmer. So that gives me the better advantage. Um, 

[00:23:20] Mike Koelzer, Host: I, you know, I, I got, I gotta jump in to see no one, no one can see what I look like on the screen. So, believe it or not though. Um, I did triathlons back.

Well before you guys were born and then also from 2012 to 15, and I was a swimmer in high school and it's terrible because in the swim I'm like in the top 25%. Right. But in the run and the bike I'm well below the bottom quarter. And so, yeah, I have, I have never. I have yet to ever pass somebody in a triathlon.

I mean, these people just zoom by me, so that's very, uh, uh , that's not fun. So I I'm, I'm sure you could not be as good at swimming. That's great. And I'm, and I'm sure you're decent, uh, at the bike, in the run also. Yeah. 

[00:24:09] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: My cycling has, has significantly improved over the past few years, so I just.

Overall female for may. Oh no. I sometimes make the age group, but I actually want an overall female in one that we participated in, uh, last month at Paris landing. So that was exciting.

[00:24:32] Mike Koelzer, Host: Good for you. Yeah, that's fantastic. So, Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah. I always tell my kids that, uh, I always say I won my age group and I say, that's for old guys that were born on October 8th, 1966. And then sometimes I have to say before noon or afternoon, I gotta narrow that, uh, age group down to like a, a three hour span, like, you know, 50 years ago.

Mm-hmm so you, you won your, you won your, uh, the females. 

[00:24:59] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Yeah. So dang. It's fun. And, and, um, so anyway, uh, that's always been a passion of mine is, um, is doing athletics. So going back to time management, I learned that at an early age, because I would, you know, go to school, then have basketball practice, then cheer practice, then soccer practice.

So I was getting home, you know, 7, 7 30. And having dinner and then trying to do homework before going to bed and then getting up. Yeah. So not a lot of room to, you know, get in trouble or anything. No. Um, just really, um, 

[00:25:44] Mike Koelzer, Host: yeah, that forces you into that, right? Yeah. I think mine was just trying to get home.

Four o'clock to watch Gilligan's island. That's what I had to, you know, do, but no, that's, that's fantastic. That really teaches you a lot to, um, you know, the old cliche of you want something done, give it to a busy person. So mm-hmm , you're certainly a good example of that. 

[00:26:02] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Yeah. So, so yeah, I mean, I guess back then, you know, I didn't really watch a lot of TV.

I don't really watch a lot of TV now. I listen to a lot of podcasts. Um, and things, and, and I'm a big fan of audible, but, um, that's probably just my maximizer, uh, strength coming out. I can, can do that while being in the car or something, so, right. Yeah. The podcast was, um, just a vision that I had and you know, you don't know if you can do it unless you try it.

And, um, that's been happening for. Two years. And then, um, I've been, had another passion for, um, doing education, uh, around, uh, the new, uh, you know, medical cannabis is becoming, uh, really ubiquitous and it's been approved and, you know, 30 plus I think 33 34. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, you know, not advocating for against, but.

We as pharmacists need to learn about it because yeah, we do. Exactly. Patients are coming up. And so, and asking questions about it, you know, it's in, it's starting to come out and, and, you know, all the retail stores and, and everywhere. And so. Um, the goal is to, um, have an online course available to educate pharmacists on that and that's available on, um, a website or will be available.

Um, and then I'm also, um, going to be launching a podcast dedicated to, um, natural products. And that'll be the natural products resource center. Uh, podcast, so, 

[00:27:45] Mike Koelzer, Host: oh, that's great. What, yeah. What, uh, what metrics Hillary, do you put on your podcast to say that it's successful in your eyes? Is it, is it because it's enjoyable for you it's successful or do you have any, do you have any, um, markers and unfortunately, most of us these days, , you know, never really happy with the marker because as soon as it gets there, you wanna change it to a different, a different goal.

But what do you, what do you consider a, your win with the podcast? 

[00:28:20] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: You know, I, I really don't have any firm metrics on that. I mean, it's still a fun passion of mine. I love it. Connecting with other pharmacists. Sure. And, um, I love learning about what they're doing and if I geek out on that, I wanna be able to share their stories.

Yeah. And, and really, it kind of came down to, you know, I remember, um, being in pharmacy school and they'd have guest speakers come in and share about their different career paths. And I kind of was thinking, wow, What if we could scale that and sure. Anyone could learn about it. And, yeah. Um, and so that was really kind of the initial thought, but I think it's just become so much more, um, because you know, I also just have this, this real, um, I wanna teach people about thinking about, um, how to think outside of, of pharmacy.

Right. And just looking at healthcare, uh, from a broader perspective and, you know, really seeing, um, you know, demonstrating our value as a profession, um, you know, driving home that sense of purpose and mission and, you know, trying to build a tribe around that. So, um, you know, Um, for, for listeners, you know, you're kind of part of the, talk to your pharmacist tribe, and you can, you know, follow on Instagram and share and, and, uh, you know, we've also got a, a Facebook page.

Um, so yeah, it's really just been, uh, of course I can, can track and see how, yeah. It's grown. Um, but yeah, but I'm sure, you know, 

[00:30:17] Mike Koelzer, Host: but that keeps changing and, and I think the, probably that it, you know, looking at you and, and, you know, I can see your, that when you talk about the people you meet and stuff, that sounds like the best metric you could, you could have 

[00:30:31] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: there.

Yeah. And, and, you know, it's, it's really just, um, I, I'm just kind of a relationship, uh, per I think, uh, Malcolm Gladwell talks about. Connectors MAs and sales, uh, men in his book, um, tipping point. Yeah. And I would consider myself a connector. I enjoy, um, talking to people and yeah. So finding guests is the easy part, because I think that my love of learning is always like, oh, what are other people doing?

[00:31:08] Mike Koelzer, Host: And. Right. How are you, um, with your guess, um, how do you decide who you want? And it seems that the podcast is such a good way to meet people. How have you met them enough or know them enough to then invite them on your show or are those more cold? And you're not meeting them till 

[00:31:33] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: later? Yeah. A lot of it is really organic.

Um, So, you know, just, um, existing relationships was where I started. And then. Uh, trickles down. So, you know, like people are like, oh, you should invite so and so or so, and so, right. Or I meet them at a conference or I see something that they post on LinkedIn, or I see something on Instagram, you know, all the different forms of social media.

Yeah. Right, 

[00:32:03] Mike Koelzer, Host: right. And of course the bigger, the, the more you're out there, the more episodes, people know people and, and so on. So yeah, that really snowballs. I'm sure. Mm-hmm okay. So. Most people would say, all right, that's enough. I've got the three websites going. I won my triathlon category, doing this, doing that.

But you got something else that is taking up your time that you shared? Uh, just before we went on, on record here. What, what is that? 

[00:32:35] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Yeah, so I'm working on my MBAs and I have always had. Inkling of wanting to do that, but, um, you know, there wasn't ever a good fit. Uh, so I, I'm still very strongly off, even though it sounds like I work all the time.

I, I have a, I think a decent work life balance. Sure. Uh, we live in a fun city. We like to go out on the lake when we get invited, uh, on the weekends, you know? Well, we love to go out. We love to travel, um, you know, try out new restaurants, but, you know, during the week we're, um, pretty scheduled. Um, so I've always had this interest in the MBA, but man, I'm not gonna take a year off from work.

Um, right. I'm not gonna commit to being somewhere every weekend. What if I wanna be traveling and, um, through my employer actually, Um, well, I've been thinking about, um, as I've been moving more into leadership and, and, um, learning about leadership, um, I just really wanted to, to get more hone those business skills of, of accounting and finance and marketing and, um, new that if I wanted to continue to advance in that and, and with some of the other entrepreneurial, uh, interests that I wanted to get the MBA and.

Um, there are a couple of great programs. The one that I've selected is through Western governor's university. Um, oh, the other thing I meant, so not only the time was a big concern, but financially sure. Um, you know, some of these schools, it's a 50 or 60 grand commitment and wow. Um, you know, we don't have that kind of money to just throw out.

Uh, I didn't wanna take on any large student loans that, uh, through Western governor's university, I found, uh, a nonprofit university that, uh, 19 governors came together and founded and, uh, it has great reviews online about it. And it's an online program, so it is self-paced and competency based. Um, so I. Pick it up and do it whenever.

Uh, I want to, so I can, you know, of course I'm incentivized because it's based on six month terms. So, uh, you can take as many classes as you want in six months. Uh oh, I see. Gotcha. The less it is. Right. Um, but yeah, it's, it's been a great, um, it's been a really good experience so far and, um, You know, found value in it and it's been a very reasonable price and, and something that my employer is thankfully, uh, reimbursing, uh, a little bit.

Oh, 

[00:35:43] Mike Koelzer, Host: That's neat. And so, you know, I, I think, I, I think at this point in my life, if, and I have no plans for it, I think if I did an MBA, a good portion of it would be to. Put those letters behind my name. And it sounds like that's not your, obviously your, your top concern by any means. Is that part of it? Do you want to have that behind you for different avenues that will open up?

Or what percent would you say is like the benefit and what percent is knowing people that you now have an MBA for whatever reasons or any doors that opens just by having that on your. . 

[00:36:28] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Yeah. You know, I think having letters behind our name is a very interesting topic. So, um, so yeah, I think that that pharmacy has become really interested in that.

[00:36:43] Mike Koelzer, Host: it's a lot of 

letters. 

[00:36:45] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, what's interesting with the medical profession, it's just MD. 

[00:36:52] Mike Koelzer, Host: Right. 

[00:36:53] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Yeah. You see MD, you may see MD MPH MD, MBA. Yeah. MD, maybe PhD. Um, but right. Uh, like for instance, my, um, uh, my, the, I, the eye surgeon I'm blanking on their, um, 

[00:37:14] Mike Koelzer, Host: oh, like the, the OD 

[00:37:15] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: or. No. Um, anyway, the physician that did my LASIK surgery, I am now blanking on.

I'm not an optometrist. That's not a physician, but an ophthalmologist. Yes. That was on the tip of my tongue ophthalmologist. I know why I wouldn't say it wasn't coming to my mind. Uh, the ophthalmologist also got his PhD from MIT in physics and was one of the very first to do 3d LASIK.

Yeah. And here in Nashville. And so I, you know, when I went doing LASIK, I'm like, I'm gonna pick him, uh, for that extra training. But yeah, it's interesting. So, um, you know, I thought about doing the whole VCPS and. You know, um, may I haven't needed it in my career. Um, maybe if you're going to niche down and do, um, ambulatory care, maybe yeah.

Something specialty pharmacy, or, you know, maybe you're gonna work in the ICU. Some you, some hospitals don't even consider you, you know, if you don't have one of those, um, interesting. Right. But, uh, for me, Uh, I have just been really drawn into more of the business side of healthcare and, um, really see myself more moving into healthcare, executive role.

And, uh, that's something even with, uh, I'm a member of the academy or sorry, the, the American college of healthcare executives, ACH E and, um, you know, that's something where, um, You can move for any executive or if you wanna move forward and, and learn more about that type of skill, you know, you could be a nurse or you might be a physician or, or a lot of different areas, uh, in healthcare, but can pursue that, uh, credential as well.

So, yeah, I, I guess I am more interested in some of, of the non pharmacy specific, um, 

[00:39:26] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah, and, and that's gotta help. And that's gotta help though, having that behind your name, right. If you're looking at an executive position, um, despite you wanting it for, um, prestige or so on, it's gotta help. It would seem it would help in the business world, moving up in the executive roles.

What'd you do? 

[00:39:50] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Hope, you know, hopefully, um, it will . Yeah. So, we'll see. But yeah. Um, it's, it's been fun and, and I think it'll, that's cool. Definitely bring value. 

[00:40:01] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. Good for you. All right. I have a couple questions for you. What, um, what professionally or, you know, professionally, financially, not personally, but what, what things are causing you to.

Get butterflies in your stomach or lose sleep or, or worry about what, what in your career, whether it's job security or a million other things. 

[00:40:30] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Hmm. That's an interesting 

[00:40:30] Mike Koelzer, Host: question. Or are you just like, everything is great. Give me some lemonade. Just gonna hang out. 

[00:40:38] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: You know, personally, I, I, I don't struggle with that.

Uh, what I, what I am, what I am concerned about is our, the health of our profession. Yeah. And, um, you know, I think that we're seeing a lot of change. I mean, there's change happening everywhere in the healthcare industry. Right. Um, so it's not isolated just to the pharmacy. Um, but what I really, you know, that's probably what keeps me up at night is, you know, you see their lies.

Um, yeah, just today we heard, yeah. Walgreens is shut Walgreens and Walmart and Walmart had laid off some people and yeah. You know, there you see that, uh, or, or hospital systems or, you know, maybe they're adding off people. Um, yeah. So I think that's probably, um, what is the biggest, um, concern for me?

Sure. And. I think that, you know, it is a very complex issue and, and people are definitely, uh, very, um, uh, emotional about it. Yeah, I bet. Um, but you know, I, I, we, we really have a choice. Um, you know, how do we respond to that? And, you know, you can choose to respond. Um, With kind of, this can do attitude and, um, you know, really looking at ways like, all right, well, how do you all right, well, what's the worst that could happen.

Okay. You lose your job and then what? Yeah. Well then you look for a different job. Maybe you don't find it. And then what, and so, so you kinda think through like, what's the worst case that could happen. And then you, um, just start, you know, There with a pharmacy degree. There's so much versatility.

Yeah. Um, maybe it's not what you have been doing, but I mean, just look at my career. Um, I, you know, things came up and I was like, gosh, well, I gotta make a shift. And, and you do. And I think that, that the training that we have, um, from pharmacy school, um, we. Are really good at, um, or we have, we have a lot of, of value that we can bring in.

So I think it's just, um, being persevere, keeping a positive attitude, um, and actually staying engaged. So yeah. So, you know, if, if we don't know what's happening, like if we don't know, oh, well the payment models are changing. And so. Um, while we did make a really great living with being reimbursed, uh, based on, you know, filling drugs, right.

Um, that's changing and we're moving towards value based care. And so we need to be there, um, advocating and, um, demonstrating that value. And so, you know, I was talking with some people from CMS here recently. And, you know, everyone talks about the physicians and the nurses and I'm like, and the pharmacist.

Yeah. Right. You know, we've gotta, we've got a primary care shortage. Yeah. And this bill for exactly. Um, having pharmacists, uh, serve, um, primary care population, especially in rural areas, you've got 90% of people who live within five miles of a pharmacy. So yeah. Um, we're very accessible. 

[00:44:26] Mike Koelzer, Host: If you had to stay in the workforce, you had to still be you, you still had to have money coming in, but you could do it any way you wanted to.

What job would you like, where would you like to be spending most of your time? You know, some pharmacist will say, well, I wanna write all day, or I want to do this all day. What would you be doing? Um, If, if, if you could take any job you wanted to, and you didn't have to worry about the pay rates of any of the jobs.

[00:44:59] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: Yeah. That's an interesting question. And, you know, I, I'm really blessed because the work that I do at dispensary of hope is, um, meaningful. That's great and challenging, and there's a lot of variety. So for me, Um, it fits really well. Some people want to have a schedule every day for me. Right. I feel like I'm using a lot of those skills.

Um, and 

[00:45:24] Mike Koelzer, Host: That's great. It sounds like you're right in the spot you want to be. Yeah. 

[00:45:27] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: You gotta find your sweet spot and, you know, in the future, um, you know, I'd love to maybe own my own. Uh, business and, you know, really expand with, with the, the work that I'm looking at doing with the natural products resource center or, or sure.

Um, you know, maybe there's another venture that I want to launch or co launched with, with somebody. Um, I think that, um, speaking out for the profession and, um, advocating and, um, that's something that. That I hope to continue to do as well. Um, so I think that that will probably be something that I just am, am really interested in.

Um, 

[00:46:18] Mike Koelzer, Host: what if you did not have any. you weren't allowed to work. And even though you wanted to, they said, Hillary, you just can't do this. What are you then spending your time on? I think it sounds to me like you always have to be moving in problem solving in that. So. Oh, 

[00:46:39] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: I think that's an easy answer. What would you be doing?

I would be traveling around the world with my husband. awesome. Yep. That's I sometimes fantasize about if I could have a travel blog and just travel, but oh, 

[00:46:55] Mike Koelzer, Host: so you got that all planned out in your 

[00:46:57] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: head? Yeah, that would be really fun if I, if I didn't need any money now we don't have children yet.

Um, yeah, so of course. We'll probably change things for sure. Who knows if you're living on the road for, you know, months on end, there is something to be said about being in community with people. Yeah. Right. Being grounded. But, um, yeah, it, it's just, we just have such a great time and I love experiencing all of the different cultures and seeing, uh, different places.

It's just, 

[00:47:30] Mike Koelzer, Host: oh, that's neat that you know, that that's, that's really cool. That's really cool. Yeah. I've yet to get, I think I've, I've been to Canada and Mexico now the younger generations, like if you haven't been overseas, like by the time you're a senior in high school, it's like, something's wrong. We, we, we knew we were never like that.

Did you travel in high school? 

[00:47:53] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: You know, uh, it's funny that you say that because. Well, I think we did a cruise, you know, we did a cruise yeah. Bahamas in like sixth grade. And then, but my first real trip was before my senior year of high school. Of course. See. Um, so it was a big two week, uh, trip about 40 kids from my high school went.

And, um, we had, you know, actually my mom was a chef. She. School at my high school and was a chaperone. And, um, so about 40 of his kids, we did England, France and Italy, and I just loved it and then really didn't have the chance to go back. So, um, I had some college friends that. Went and studied abroad.

And that is the one thing that I regret from college is that I didn't get to study abroad, but not doing that. But you know, my parents weren't, you know, they were like, well, you can either do DC next year, or you can study abroad this year. And I picked DC and I think, um, really life and career wise, That ended up being a great decision.

Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, we didn't have, we didn't have, you know, we couldn't afford to send me to do, uh, you know, six weeks to Italy. Exactly. Um, exactly. So hopefully I'll be able to give our children that experience. Cause I think it would be interesting to have that, um, in 

[00:49:29] Mike Koelzer, Host: college. Yeah, my wife and I always, and I always joke.

Cause when. As our older kids start doing some of that traveling, we always have kind of a, we make believe that we've been to Paris. So at least we can fake name drop with the kids as they're talking about their travels all over the place. Yeah. I'm jealous of that, but, uh, but I guess we'll have our, we'll have our time, so, well, Hillary, it's been a pleasure, uh, talking to you.

Yeah. Well, 

[00:49:55] Hillary Blackburn, PharmD, MBA: thank you so much for having me on as a guest and best of luck as you. Uh, grow wings with the business of pharmacy podcasts and, uh, enjoy talking with you.

This 

[00:50:14] Mike Koelzer, Host: was the business of pharmacy podcast with me, your host, Mike Keer. Please subscribe for future episodes.