Why I Sold My Pharmacy | Scott Newman, PharmD, PUTT President and Former Pharmacy Owner

Speech to text:

Mike Koelzer, Host: [00:00:00] Scott for those that haven't come across you online, introduce yourself and tell our listeners what we're gonna talk about today. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: I'm Scott Newman, I'm, uh, president of Pharmacist United for Truth and Transparency. And I was owner of Newman Family Pharmacy in Chesapeake, Virginia, up until about two weeks ago.

So, um, we could talk a little bit about why that is and certainly stuff that's going on in the organization and, uh, future plans and things that I intend to try to continue to fight in the, uh, PVM battle. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I have always said that someday I'm gonna get out. I'm gonna retire. And then I always put the disclaimer in that I don't know what it's gonna be like after I see my store.

I've known this for, you know, 40 years. I've lived this life with the store, always in my head. Roaming around how are your first two weeks? 

Yeah. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: Well, what you're describing certainly feels pretty amazing from a, uh, not having to worry about if I was there or not. And you know, every single day for me was basically, were there any fires that I needed to address if I wasn't there?

And if I was there, obviously, what else am I gonna be able to accomplish today? Being that I don't have any staff hardly anymore, cuz I couldn't afford to pay anybody. Um, or if, uh, you know, every day, regardless if I was there or not. Oh, it's four 30. I've got an order deadline at 5, 5 35 45, 6, 6 37, 7 38, 8 30 and nine.

And since I'm buying from 19 different wholesalers to make sure I'm not overpaying for something, then that's a good two, three hours over my day. And if I miss it, let's just say, I'm not here. And I happen to take a nap, which rarely happens because if I slept through my order period, whoever was there, either me or whoever I was paying to be there.

Well, the next day was gonna be screwed. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Years ago, everything was simpler, the billing and the wholesaler and things like that. And what you described there is what you almost need. Either yourself or almost somebody with an accounting slash MBA degree, plus a lot of mental energy and fight in them just to place your damn order.

Scott Newman, PharmD: Well, what you need is somebody who has a vested interest in your business, because if it's not, if they don't have that, they're gonna overspend your money. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: What you say there is no meal to take a nap. I mean, that's a, you're never off. It's a good symbolism of saying. And I think we've all felt that I can't go to a movie theater in the afternoon.

You know, I can't do a lot of stuff. I can't not without your iPad, I can't be on a roller coaster, you know, with my kids without hopping off and seeing is this happening perfectly? To even keep your head above 

Scott Newman, PharmD: water. Yeah. I mean, it's the same thing. I mean, you know, uh, I mean, your family gets used to you being attached to your phone or your iPad, even on your days off, they know, you know, you step away at, at four 30, between four 30 and 6, 6 37 o'clock.

And you're constantly on your phone or your iPad if you've had a heavy order day, or if you're trying to figure out if something that was put on the order was necessary. If you know you're making phone calls, you're taking phone calls. Lord knows if a new compound came in, that I hadn't inputted into the computer yet.

Um, you just stop and do that. You know, it's working every day and I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. If I was being paid, you know, the money part is important. The 

Mike Koelzer, Host: The question I just asked you is more appropriately put to somebody who's been out three months. I imagine being out for two weeks, your head is still spinning.

Is. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: To a degree and it is more a function of I've got all this stuff, um, you know, to purge basically, um, the first week, the first three days, you know, I was here nine years. I started from scratch and, um, it became my identity. And now all of a sudden I am no longer attached to that identity. And yes, I have other portions of my life that I identify with, like with the, you know, the advocacy and such, but.

in my community. This is my identity. They don't know about my advocacy. You know, it's not important to them. Um, yeah, well, it should be, but it's not. But you know, for the most part, it's not something that, um, you get into a conversation with every day with people. But, you know, my customers were my, you know, fourth and fifth grade math and English teachers and you know, my, my children's, you know, dance parents, um, you know, my, my old football coach, you know, people that I grew up here with and who were here to help me succeed.

And, you know, it's funny cuz when a lot of people found out that I was shutting the doors, especially in the community, it was a function of man, why don't these people just support these local businesses? I'm like, oh, these people did. I had plenty of support. In fact, uh, September, August [00:05:00] two of my busiest months in the nine years that I've been open volume, uh, RX volume wise and sales wise, but there's no money coming in mm-hmm and I can't figure it out.

Where is 

Mike Koelzer, Host: the money you texted me recently, and you shared the information that Mike, I, I sold the store. When you have to tell somebody that outside of your, maybe bigger announcement, when you have to tell people that what's your main emotion that you're feeling, I don't 

Scott Newman, PharmD: care for the attention so much.

Um, it, it's more a function of, I feel like I have to be apologetic. Um, almost to just a good example of one of, one of the people that a friend of mine that I went to high school with has known her since probably first grade. And she, you know, when she found out she messaged me and, and her husband, Peter also went to school with us and he says, what am I gonna do now?

Because Scott took such good care of us. You know, everything else is gonna suck. and mm-hmm, all I could do was apologize. And I mean, they didn't expect me to, but that's what I felt like doing, you know, sorry, I apologize. I failed you and, and it's not that I failed them. It's, you know, obviously there's more to it than that, but, um, when you're that invested in your community, like most of us are, you do feel guilty.

Uh, there is a, a, a, a, you know, a component of guilt there as well on top of relief, you know, I, you know, a lot of this business for me personally, was attached to, um, uh, almost the past life. I mean, uh, I've got the, you know, I have four children with my ex and this was the catalyst for our divorce. Wasn't the, the, the main cause of it.

But it certainly, um, we made it 22 years and, and the store just kind of, and all the, the stresses that come with it just shredded it, which, um, I'm happy to say that I've. Met somebody else and we're having our starting family. So this is kind of like a, you know, a previous life at this point. So it's kind of relieving in that sense, but also too, you know, my, my fiance, Melissa said it best.

She's like, well, if the store was making money, then we would come stay up here all the time. Cuz she's from, uh, Louisiana. And uh, yeah, but, but there is that sense of, of what's next. And, and part of that has to do since most of us, I'm sure you can relate to this. Our identities are tied, you know, together with our work and our personal lives.

If I'm gonna feel 

Mike Koelzer, Host: guilty with customers and stuff, I wanna really feel guilty while I'm sitting on a beach somewhere. I wanna feel guilty that way. Our problem is we're stuck in this pressure from both sides where there's a guilty feeling, but there's nothing you could have done. To save it from 

Scott Newman, PharmD: an effort and, and talent standpoint I had, I did pretty good for nine years.

Mm-hmm I mean, this last year has been especially challenging. Um, I still can't explain it to you. Uh, I can look in hindsight maybe at some point, but, uh, previous years I felt like I was in worse financial, you know, situations, but for some reason, the money always seemed to catch up. And now for some reason, it's like, where's all this money that my computer says that I'm making, you know, I've got my computer program for Dr.

Fees. This is not a program for GE and VR, but I can't imagine that they're taking or keeping that much at the PSA to pay those bills down the street. Maybe they are. My rep said, nah, they're not doing that, but I don't know that. I believe it. You know, it's just, where's the money. I, and, and I've got several of my, my board who are, we're all asking the same questions.

I mean, I even reached out to the great Benja and said, Ben, where's our money that we don't know. But cash flow is tight for most people right now. And we haven't figured out why yet 

Mike Koelzer, Host: the PBMs and whoever they have their tentacles into their biggest skill is to set up smoke and mirrors. And just like, when we watch magicians on TV, you don't see how they do it because they have the smoke and mirrors.

And so while we sit there thinking that, all right, the PBMs are doing this, but we're upset with them. And we're seeing what they're doing. Their true thing is smoke and mirrors in a magical sense where. You don't even know where the hell it went. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: Yeah. Right now it is that way. Very much so I, I, you know, as many resources as we try to have, or figure out that we have to find out where our money is, [00:10:00] I, I've not been able to find where it's go or why it's taking so long to come through back, you know, back through to us.

And I mean, just to give you an example, I've paid more in EFT and ACH, you know, overdrafts and, and returns this year than I've paid myself. And that's never happened before. Like I always hit one every once in a while, when too many hands are at the cookie jar, pulling out too many cookies at the same time, but never like this, this I've gone, you know, in the last two months before I closed, there were several were weeks where I didn't have a positive freaking number in my bank account.

And it doesn't make sense. I've got huge sales. I'm not overspending. There is. Some accounting for growth, but I took that into account because I have had some growth, um, that growth started occurring, you know, four to six months ago. It is time for that to have turned over by now. And it wasn't, I just don't know where it is still trying to figure it out.

Mike Koelzer, Host: We're directly contracting with insurance companies. So we don't use PS SAOs anymore. And every once in a while, I'll still get a check from the PSAO mm-hmm , that's like here's, you know, X thousand dollars. And, you know, because of this reason or that reason, I just open up the damn thing and take the check out.

And I throw the remittance thing away because it's like, it just reinforces that even these groups that are supposed to be figuring this out and explaining it to us, even though they have our money somehow still from 15 months later. And it's like, if that never showed up, I'd have no idea that they owe it to me.

I tell you 

Scott Newman, PharmD: what, the fact that you're in the situation you are, you're probably not feeling like what some of us are that have in fact still have that relationship with PSO and, and a primary. You know, I think that those of us who have that type of relationship right now, really understand what I'm talking about right now.

Cuz. In your situation, which I think a lot of us either will end up doing before they do what I did. Uh, of course I had other reasons, but as well, but you know, for the primary reason, if you wanna survive, I think that you need to start direct contracting. You need to break away from a PSA O and you need to stop filling stuff at a loss.

You 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Now, I'll explain it here on the show for any non pharmacist listeners. But in a nutshell, we were ordering in, let's say $10,000 a night in brand name, prescriptions mm-hmm . And then a month later you'd get paid $9,000, for sure, for those $10,000 now multiply that by 300 weekdays a year or whatever, and you've got then quickly a quarter million dollars that you don't have anymore.

Mm-hmm and. For me, it wasn't a decision between, is this gonna be a great business decision going to generic only it was like, no, the decision is, am I still gonna have a pharmacy or is it gonna be generic 

Scott Newman, PharmD: only? Well, that's another thing. It kind of reminds me of the point that, um, you know, we talk about expanding services and doing other things.

At what point are we no longer a pharmacy? I mean, our primary sources of, of the majority of the money we invest. Uh, and I get really, I get animated about this because it really pisses me off cuz pharmacy leadership in general, you know, keeps pushing this cost plus model. And you know what? You're a bad business person.

If you're willing to do the whole cost. Plus if you're gonna invest the majority of your money, let's just say you're on the low end 200,000 a month to get 200,000 back. You're an idiot. Why are we pushing this crap at, at national level organization wise? Because nobody in business in this country is expected to invest money that like that amount of money to expect.

No. That really aggravates me, you're 

Mike Koelzer, Host: exaggerating a bit because somebody who has 200,000 in costs is gonna get 200,000 plus some, are you exaggerating and saying that plus is just not worth it. That's like breaking even 

Scott Newman, PharmD: well, what's the plus the plus is what a $10, $15 dispense fee. So if I buy a drug for $15,000, I I'm, I'm a good business person for making $15 on that 

Mike Koelzer, Host: because the cost pluses are usually a fee.

It's not a percentage. That's what they're saying. Right. I gotcha. Right. I gotcha. I always say that too. The guys at the pharmacy, you have to have percentages in there when you've got bigger products, because you have a bigger chance for loss. You've got, you're putting more money out, you're putting more money out.

You could have someone walk out the door with the wrong medicine and you know, you can't take it back or their [00:15:00] expired products and things like 

Scott Newman, PharmD: that. So, yeah, I mean, it happens. We all end up with stuff that we didn't intend on opening, or even put a label on that we're stuck with and you know what to make a break, even plus a $15 on any drug to me over $400.

I mean, that even might be a little bit lofty, you know, if it happens several times a week, that's several thousand dollars that you are investing, that you are going to get zero return on you gotta loan break even come on, man break. Even as a business person is an asinine 

Mike Koelzer, Host: idea. Yeah. I'd forgotten about that cost plus, because they're saying it's a fee versus a sliding fee being a percentage.

But that's what they're 

Scott Newman, PharmD: asking us to do and be okay with it. I'm not okay with that. That's why I'm, I mean, I think I'm a good business person. That's why I no longer own an independent pharmacy. You don't have to rub 

Mike Koelzer, Host: it in

Scott Newman, PharmD: So that's why people keep telling me congratulations. Right.

all 

Mike Koelzer, Host: right. So what was the straw that you said, and I know that you had other reasons 

Scott Newman, PharmD: and things. The main thing is financial. I mean, I just saw the writing on the wall. I mean, every one of us can bear down and try to make it another day. Um, and, and for the most part, that's what I've kind of been doing.

Mm-hmm , um, even while just negotiating, uh, you know, a deal of sale and. I'll be honest with you, man. I was probably about two weeks away from being in a bad, bad spot. And, you know, you buy from 20 different wholesalers and you know, they're not as kind as they were before the pandemic, they used to let you get away with being way over your, your, uh, your, your account minimums and behind on your payment.

By several weeks to some of 'em would be several months, as long as you paid, 'em something, eventually they aren't doing that any longer. They want their money the day of, and if the day is due, you don't have it for 'em guess what you don't get to order until you have it. And so, you know, half of your wholesalers are waiting for that $150 payment from that one drug order that you made and you couldn't pay the frigging $150 drug payment, uh, at, at the two week or 30 day mark.

So they put you on hold status and you're on hold status. Where are you gonna buy drugs from? Well, You know, I was Robbing Peter to pay Paul. But if, if we, you know, everybody can bear down and, and miss that ship. And when that ship sails, you're gonna walk away with a lot of debt and you're going to have financial ruin.

And I just felt like it was to the point that my business is worth less than it is now. Last year already. Mm-hmm because one of the major players who I would, by the way, never have sold to no matter what, but at least they, the, the ones that bid for it didn't know this, but, you know, CVS has a moratorium on bond pharmacies this until at least until the end of the year.

So they weren't even part of the conversation. You know, you, you got two other major players that, you know, are still kind of in the game. One of them isn't all that fun to work with. And the other one doesn't necessarily offer you the most. Mm-hmm . I feel like it was worth less. I'm not saying I didn't get a fair deal cuz I did.

I think that is right. Was very fair with it and, and more than fair. And I just happened to know that it wasn't going to get any more valuable number one. And number two, even with pro you know, approaching 1.8, 1.9 million in sales for the year, none of that is in my account and I don't know where it is and I don't waste money.

Why am I struggling to make payroll? I thought, I feel like I've been in way worse situations in the past. And I have a problem making payroll for three or four employees. I literally have one person of my, my, uh, you know, on, on QuickBooks to pay every two weeks and you know, struggling to make that payroll and.

When the bank account stays negatively. I always said I hate getting up in the morning. The first thing I have to do is look at my bank account. That was kind of my only goal for success was not having to look at my bank account every morning. Well, it's gotten worse. So for me, the writing was on the wall 

Mike Koelzer, Host: From my experience, the time where you really have to close the door or make a huge decision is when you don't have the money to pay for your drugs, as you mentioned.

Yeah, definitely. You can do a lot of things, but if you don't have any drugs, that's certainly not a, you know, I know the ship has already sailed by that point, but then you close the door at that point. Why do you think wholesalers are less forgiving? During COVID. Was that just by chance or do you think it has something to do with the supply and so on?

Scott Newman, PharmD: I've thought about this a little bit. I think it's more fun. First of all, I don't think that the smaller, secondary wholesalers, at least they haven't relayed this [00:20:00] to like their accounts. All they see is a bunch of deadbeat pharmacies that aren't paying their bills. Mm-hmm they don't have a clue that we're literally in the middle of one of the mass, you know, extinctions of independent pharmacy going on, that we've ever had.

Mm-hmm and we've seen some preliminary numbers about closings and, you know, state by state. And, you know, we talked about before how this model is unsustainable, where in the unsustainable part right now, uh, it's, it's kind of scary. In fact, numbers get rechecked when you don't believe them, because they're so.

Egregious. And they're correct. Looking 

Mike Koelzer, Host: 10 years ago, a lot of this has to do with someone's personality to say, was this a bad choice or a good choice? And some people say, well, it's just a choice. That life mm-hmm has its ups and downs. Are you angry? Are you disgusted? Are you just happy? It's over. Do you look back with any regret or is this 

Scott Newman, PharmD: just, yes, it is all that.

Tell me about that. Yeah, it's a roller coaster. I mean, if you don't have anything technically invested in this industry, on our side of the industry and you just happen to either know somebody or care about somebody who does, or maybe you went down that rabbit hole on your own, somehow you ran across an article and it was curious to you.

And what I have found is, is. The people that start to go down this rabbit hole with you that have no return or have no real stake in the fight. When they show signs of wanting to join this fight for free, or they become passionate about it, then there's definitely a component to it. That is unjust. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Give me an example of that.

What you just were 

Scott Newman, PharmD: saying. Yeah, I mean, I could use Monique for instance, our executive director at putt. She didn't know anything about PBMs prior to all this. Uh, I'll give you another example, the guy you had on your podcast, not so long ago, mark. mm-hmm , you know, and talking about his, the process that he took to learn about PBMs, I certainly helped him learn some of that.

And when you become that invested, it is hard to keep emotion out of it. And so honest to God, I, I mean, not that she could actually do this, cuz no one would be expected to, but I, you know, there, if Monique ever left her position and we weren't parent her any longer, I have no doubt in my mind that she would still be part of that fight, which is for me the same.

What is leading to is, is that I don't intend to stop fighting even though I've left as an independent owner, because I do feel like it is one of them. in just situations that any group of small business owners could be dealing with anywhere right now in the country. Mm. And it's certainly that David versus Goliath only, you know, Goliath is winning.

You know, it's not, is not David winning. One of my 

Mike Koelzer, Host: guests. I talked to him and I asked him a similar question. I said, have you seen this in any other industry? And he said, the closest I've seen to someone really getting screwed like this. And others would differ because there's a lot of David and Goliaths and a lot of different industries and monopolies and things like that.

And sometimes the ability for us to reach out to other industries and find common ground in getting screwed. You have a larger voice in Washington and so on. But with that said, the guest said the closest he's seen is wall street back in the eighties where. Investment groups were also becoming publishers and they were publishing articles about how great the investments are.

So people would then turn around and invest in their investment side of things. He said, that's the closest it came. But he said that doesn't compare to how the little guys are getting screwed in pharmacy. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: Yeah. It's unique, um, to a degree. I mean, there's other industries, obviously. There's there's, I mean, I don't personally, and, and this could just be because I'm biased to our industry, but you know, the big tech thing is a legitimate concern that, that the, the powers that be want to tackle, they certainly are taking advantage of many small businesses the way they do.

But to me, there's a component that also helps small businesses involved, and you know, who gets to judge what that value is. I don't know mm-hmm , but in our case, It's literally it, it's not so much that they're using us to try to just keep us alive. They've gone past that. I mean, a vampire will suck a little blood here and there just to [00:25:00] satisfy their needs and then keep you alive here.

They're going straight for jugulars and it's not even, they're not leaving any remnants to, to continue to feed off of. I don't know if that's greed or the ball's just rolling too fast down the hill. I don't know what it is, but it doesn't make sense to me. I know that 

Mike Koelzer, Host: much. I have a bad taste in my mouth for a lot of the industry.

Well, practically most industries, including the wholesalers and the PS SAOs yeah, they're all culpable. You talk about keeping someone alive, in my opinion, especially when you got a wholesaler that's running a PS, a O. It's like the only benefit they have of doing something on our behalf is making sure our cash register still.

Running stuff through it. In other words, they don't care about our profit because their profit stays exactly the same until we're no longer there. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: Yeah. And I don't, I don't know if the luxury is, is that we're not, you know, that we're in this transition of having been, you know, X, Y, Z number strong to minus, you know, a certain amount at this point.

I, I, it'll be interesting to witness what starts to happen in the rest of the industry as we go by the wayside. Does it flinch? Does it not flinch? Does it also suffer? I, I don't think it will. and I think that's why we're so dispensable, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: who's the rest of the industry, our suppliers, and things like 

Scott Newman, PharmD: that.

Who you mentioned PSA. And, and I mean, obviously they're owned by the larger, most of our own to some degree, but some of 'em are obvious, still independent, but the smaller ones will consolidate they'll get swallowed up. But ultimately if they're owned by a wholesaler, like access health is with, with McKesson, where do they care?

Mm-hmm , you know, Fortune 500 company. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: They don't know crap. Scott circled back on that question of the overall feeling of whether it's regret, anger, things like that. And you said it could be all of those narrows that down when you look back like 10 years ago and you think that it's like, I got into this 10 years ago.

And today I am. What was I thinking about 10 years ago? Let's talk 

Scott Newman, PharmD: about naive here, because I remember the first time I had access to my wholesaler's pricing list and I started looking up drugs and I'm like, oh my God, I'm gonna make so much money. This stuff is so cheap. Mm-hmm . And thinking back to that now, uh, stuff is still pretty cheap, but yet I didn't make any money off of it.

You know? Uh, the idea that, that. I was like, how can you not make money in this industry? But also too, when I got into it, you know, we were still making 15, 20 bucks over a cost of, on a brand drug, you know? And you were still having every once in a while, you'd hit that dermatologist that you know was $500 over acquisition, which doesn't happen anymore.

That whole wind sum loss argument from PCMA is bullshit. It just stopped happening years ago. There is no win sum, lose some it's lose some, lose some more. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Do you ever see, uh, Christmas vacation Chevy chase? 

Scott Newman, PharmD: Oh, one of my favorites. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: All right. We watch it every year. In fact, my sons as soon as the last one of them starts their Christmas vacation.

So let's say it's December, anywhere from December 15th to the 20th or whatever that night we have a Christmas vacation party at the end Chevy Chase's brother-in-law grabs the boss, you know, and brings him in his living room and reads him the riot act. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: Mm-hmm 

Mike Koelzer, Host: don't gimme a name. If you were in that movie.

Yeah. Who would you tell Eddie to grab? Not a name, but like the CEO of a PBM or the CEO of, uh, this or that, or the publisher of this or that? Who would you grab and what would you be saying to them when they're in your living room tied with a big bow 

on them? 

Scott Newman, PharmD: That's a good one. I don't know the answer to that.

I think that it has probably been, I don't know. I'll make it simple. I would say the propagandists right now. I think it's the PCMA leadership and PCMA, uh, mouth pieces, pharmaceutical care management association. PCMA the, the guys that, you know, lobby on behalf of the PBM industry, the 

Mike Koelzer, Host: PBM lobbying group.

Scott Newman, PharmD: Yeah. Yeah, because basically they're. Uh, you know, whether they believe what they're saying or not, it's mostly lies and half-truths and the half-truths leave out some really important details. And that's a tough thing in, in advocacy for us to battle is when something is true, but there's more nuance and that's not exactly the whole story.[00:30:00] 

That's a hard thing to argue against. So yeah, that'd be who I was. I 

Mike Koelzer, Host: do a lot of transference of emotions and I would probably get this guy there with the bow on him. And I'd be talking about how, because of you, I kicked the dog at my house and he is like, well, Mike, your problem. But you know, if you could chew out the PCMA, how deep would you take it?

Would you be complaining that they hurt your family and this and that? Or do you divide that and say, well, you just screwed our business and that's my responsibility to the rest of it. If 

Scott Newman, PharmD: I was to just say anything at all, obviously I, I, I don't know that I'd piss on if they were on fire. So I I'm, it's hard to think about how I would engage in that in particular way, but 

Mike Koelzer, Host: That must be a Southern term.

You mean you wouldn't help 'em out at 

Scott Newman, PharmD: all. Right? I wouldn't even and give 'em the time of day in general, but gotcha. Uh, here's a thought on that. I have a conscience and I, I hate to use the word, um, a moral compass, but about me, but I kind of like to be able to go home every day, knowing that I've been fair, uh, that I've not.

Cheated anybody that I've not said anything purposefully that wasn't true. Um, not a real religious person, but that stuff's important to my mental health in general. I have to live with myself. Mm-hmm and my question to them would be, how do you live with yourself? Going home every day, knowing that you are literally harming people, not only clients and, and our, uh, patients and mm-hmm and, uh, you know, you know, financially, but also, um, the providers, you know, you don't, you don't sell your plans to, um, save money on the backs of the providers and, and that's what's happening.

And I just want to. . I mean, I often thought in my, you know, if I leave pharmacy, I could go work for PCMA and be a good lobbyist. Right. They pay good money, but there's no way I'd ever be able to do that. I would not be able to live with myself. So I'd like to know how do you go home and sleep at night?

Mike Koelzer, Host: Some would argue when they think about corporate America, they would say, well, those guys are just doing their job and individually they're good guys. They love their kids and baseball and America and apple pie. But yeah, I don't know. It seems like sometimes you just have to look at yourself and say, okay, I'm part of this organization.

And that just doesn't seem right. Do you think they 

Scott Newman, PharmD: know you have to be able to drink the Kool-Aid? I didn't. Yeah. I can't drink that. Kool-Aid that Kool-Aid wouldn't do anything. I think, I think if they don't know, they're choosing not to know. And that's a very, very convenient thing to continue to go on and ignore it.

But there are people that I'm sure have a conscience and maybe that's their, we don't see those people anymore. Maybe they, they, that's why they aren't there anymore or, or wherever there, um, the ones that are seasoned they should know better. Or they're just that, you know, convinced that we're the bad guys.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, Boohoo Scott and Mike, your business goes down, businesses go up and down all the time. How can you sit here and attack some other industry just because. your business has gone down devil's advocate. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: Yeah. Yeah. We signed the contract. Right. I remember that. Uh, talk with, with a mark that you had contracts of adhesion mm-hmm like contracts of adhesion.

We don't have a choice. You wanna participate? You sign the contract, take it or leave it. You either sign it or you don't get to 

Mike Koelzer, Host: play. You're either gonna not sign and go out of business tomorrow, or you're gonna sign and go out of business. Maybe you don't even know the damn things happening over a two or three year period.

Yeah. You 

Scott Newman, PharmD: know, and, and also too, I think that every one of us has a piece of us that wants to hold on for change. You know, I would love to have been able to stick it out, to see if, if we get anywhere with this, you. , uh, I, I believe that we will, unfortunately, I've made this prediction in the past. We're gonna lose half of the independence in the country before I think anybody starts to do something and it's gonna cost a whole lot more money for the government to do it at that point to put it back 

Mike Koelzer, Host: who are those that can stick around.

Number one, number two, would you recommend that anybody sticks around? I 

Scott Newman, PharmD: think that the more established pharmacies that, you know, may have been able to make a little bit of money and put it away, you know, and the other back to the one point we were making [00:35:00] earlier about when is it time to go, you know, when you start having to break into your savings to keep the business afloat that you made 10 years ago, and that's your nest egg, then it's time to get out.

Or if you recently, I, I sold one of my automobiles because the climate was good for used cars and I. Made about 10 grand over what I owed on it. And I was happy about that, cuz my truck needed new tires and I owed my daughter a little bit of money from working this summer and she's away at college now.

And well, and behold, the day after I got the money from it, I put it back into the bank for the store. Mm-hmm that was the most money I had in my hands in a while. That was mine. You know that I, the store Lord know I paid anything, but you know, when you start putting that money back in that's, um, that's not a good sign, you know, it's uh, it's this expectation that, I mean, I don't know how many of your listeners out there, you know, this is what they were meant to do and this is what they were, how do I put it that their passion lies with this?

Right. You know, because my father was a pharmacist, but he wasn't an independent owner. Yeah. I was the independent owner, but I felt this was my passion and I thoroughly enjoyed doing it. with the PBM issue. I've obviously found a second passion in the advocacy side of things, but it's not the same type of fulfillment if you know what I mean.

Mm-hmm, , it's one of those things that, uh, feels like it's built out of necessity versus desire. And even though I like it, I would much prefer to still be serving my community here in my store. Mm-hmm , you know, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: up to this point so far with things that have solidified, what are some anxieties that you look back on and say, I didn't have to worry about that.

I was looking at 10 different scary roads, and there was only one scary road in the end, that kind of stuff. What's something you looked back on and said, I just didn't need to worry that much about. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: I don't worry too terribly much, which has been all very beneficial, you know, uh, uh, inherent trait that I have going through this process is for the last nine years.

But I would say that just being an independent owner has taught me even more, um, how to not really sweet things and, you know, there's, there's lines that the business forced me to cross when it came to paying, you know, when I got, when I paid somebody or mm-hmm or what I've had to ask of somebody, or, you know, what I've had to explain to somebody that I'd never in a million years would've ever thought I would be able to do or would have to do.

And, um, so, you know, being that I've done those things and in the, in the moment they were out of necessity. So I didn't feel guilty about it necessarily, or, or too bad about it. I, you know, obviously a little bit, but. The anxiety goes away. It's almost like being in a war torn country, you know, mm-hmm, eventually the gunfire and the bomb stopped making you flinch.

And that's kind of where I'm at. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Sometimes I question myself, I'm like, is this gonna bother me that I had to do this or make this choice or treat this person that way or so on. And I think we're really hard on ourselves forgetting that we've got this tremendous pressure coming from the other side. And I guess the only thought that comes to mind would be, my kids would say to me, how could somebody jump out of the building on nine 11?

You know, how could they do that? I'm like, well, I don't know if they were jumping outta the building so much. I think more, they were jumping away from them. You know what I mean? It's like, there's so much pressure. And then, 

Scott Newman, PharmD: And then there's a perspective of, you know, taking something that's completely out of your control and controlling it to what degree you can.

Yeah. You know, if I had a choice, um, between, you know, burning it at the PBMs hand or jumping out the window and free falling to wherever I land, that's what I'm choosing. Mm-hmm , 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Let's say someone is just speeding ahead and they don't even wanna think about selling. How long did it finally take before you said I'm selling and you signed the bottom line?

Scott Newman, PharmD: For me. And I imagine a lot of people like this as well. We've already mentally prepared for that moment many, many, many times before mm-hmm and not so much as a practice run, but you know how you run things through your brain, right. As to how it will go. Lot. I was very much already in the mental, you know, in the, in the mindset that I've already run through my head so many times that this is no longer practice.

And so. It didn't [00:40:00] take a whole lot for me. I was afraid I'd miss it. When I was afraid. I'd miss it and be too late. I can tell you that much. So I was constantly aware of, you know, what does it look like? Do they put locks on the doors? Um, you know, do, do, does the landlord kick me out? Do all my wholesalers stop supplying me?

Mm-hmm am I literally unable to fill people's orders? And I didn't, I didn't ever want to get to that point. Mm-hmm I could talk my way out of a lot of things, but when it gets to that point, you're kind of either you've already started the process, which can be a process. It's not a quick thing. Mm-hmm and if you don't time it right, you may miss the ship.

And if you miss them. Then you, there's a good chance. You're gonna walk away here with a lot of financial, uh, burden and a lot of debt missing. The 

Mike Koelzer, Host: ship would be losing too late, too late, because you've got a customer base and that customer base isn't worth much if there's a lull of a certain time, because they're gonna go somewhere 

Scott Newman, PharmD: else.

Yeah. Well, when you start declining the business, because of those reasons, I mean, you can still keep the doors up as long as the landlord leads to you, but if you can't service your clients, eventually they're gonna matriculate elsewhere. And, and you know, every one of 'em that walks out of that door with five prescriptions is, you know, you do a rough guesstimation at 17 bucks a script, you know, you start to lose a lot of value.

So I also, I, I didn't have the desire to explain to people, you know, that, that I can't afford to keep you as a customer, you know, or I can't afford to order that $1,200 drug. And as it became more difficult, you know, I had already had the, the. You know, the process started because it felt different this time.

I don't, I don't know if I can explain that any better than that, but you know, everybody in this industry has gone through a difficult or a financial strain or, or trying to, to do the next thing to, to keep, you know, things are running and growing. Um, but, and I've done that as well. And it just felt different this time.

Like, like in the past I could blow money on something that may grow the business in a year and it may pay off, but the money would just kind of fill back up a little bit, even though I wasn't really profiting or keeping any for myself or, or putting any away, you know, I could still pay my bills this time.

I'm literally not doing anything with my money other than repurchasing drugs, not even buying front end products, I'm not even buying CBD cuz I can't afford to. I'm literally buying drugs to keep up with the next person's order tomorrow. And. Even that's hard. And to me it just felt different. The money was not coming in.

Like it would before to replenish what I maybe haphazardly spent on a new product line or something, you know, there was no idea of investing in the business anymore because there just wasn't anything to invest because it wasn't, it wasn't filling back up after I spent it 

Mike Koelzer, Host: going back five years. Would you say, why didn't I do this or that?

Or still, was it worth being in the fight five years ago? I know you couldn't have changed the ocean of what pharmacy's doing, but would you have changed your ship or maybe a different direction of your ship or anything? Or is it like, no, I, I was still full speed ahead. Yeah, I 

Scott Newman, PharmD: don't think so. And here's why, cuz I worked for a chain for 15 years and by the time I was ready to leave there, things were starting to get to that point where.

I mean, I can't even imagine what it's like there now based on what I read and what people tell me. Um, and I was really good at that. That wasn't something that I, I just, I, I, I felt the micromanagement and the, the cutting and the, the extra work and such coming on when I left, um, to the point where some of it was ridiculous.

Like, it didn't make sense to me, these metrics and, and, um, uh, busy work stuff for people who are already busy all day, just made no sense to me, but the people that are dealing with that right now, I, I, I mean that, would've been probably my only choice other than doing this. I'm glad I did this because even though I carry a lot of stress and a lot of, um, I guess, responsibility for, you know, this, and it's, it's a trade off of control more than it is anything else, because I would much rather have been in the control that I was.

Then under somebody else's watchful eye and control, my stresses are different than those stresses would've been for those guys. Like those guys literally go to work every day, wondering if they get to keep their job. You know, I never enjoyed working in an environment where I thought that there's any reason that I could get fired that day, or that I didn't have any control over that outcome.

And so for me, I think that I wouldn't, I [00:45:00] would, I don't definitely don't look back and regret it. I don't think that I accomplished enough of what I would like to have had I had the financial ability to do so. Um, and if I had, uh, I don't know that the outcome would've been different, it may have been delayed at least under the current climate.

Mike Koelzer, Host: It sounds to me like the advice that you would give yourself would be, you don't have to look back too far. You don't have to look too far in the future because. You're resourceful and you have options, whether it's in pharmacy or making other life decisions for yourself. But I would say, well, Scott, you're the leader and you're kind of jumping off the Titanic.

So do we all follow? Is this like prophetic? Do we all go or are there still some things being done that you can say, Mike, settle down? One option might be leaving the industry, but there still are some other options and here's what they are. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: So, yeah. And there are options and, you know, amongst our group and, and we have these conversations regularly trying to figure this stuff out.

Even though I'm jumping ship, I'm only jumping from the crow's nest to the deck, you know, really in essence because, um, I'm helping to teach this basic idea of re-localizing care. Um, you know, we've decided that, oh, you know, we can't win it in the courts as easily, cuz that's taking too long. We don't have that much time.

We can't get enough. Legislation passed fast enough to save us because we're already in that unsustainable place. And um, it's hard enough to, to move, you know, a state Congress, you gotta learn a, a federal one. So, you know, there's not gonna be a whole lot happening there. You know, they, they just released the prescription drug savings and not a word mentioned about a PBM, which you can't have a conversation about drugs cost without mentioning the PBM and insurance company.

So how do you survive? And there there's models out there right now that healthcare advisors are. Are looping back in local doctors and local pharmacies to provide, you know, small to medium sized employers options to save a significant amount of money, pay a fair provider, uh, uh, pay a fair reimbursement to the providers, including pharmacies and having access to almost an exclusive patient base and, you know, to be paid fairly on the product plus to be paid fairly as a, a professional dispensing fee, and yet still saving, you know, an employer money tells you where the money goes.

So, you know, these benefit advisors are. , you know, not your traditional broker that hides all their fees and gets paid by a PBM to sell the most expensive plan. Mm-hmm what they're doing is they're going out and they are gathering small groups of insureds and, and reconnecting them to their local providers that are then paid or even charge reasonable fees without all of these middlemen.

So by cutting out the middlemen, you're in essence, not having to depend on them for your income, uh, or lack thereof, uh, or your sustainability. So, you know, there, the idea that this exists out there, isn't a new concept. There's plenty of people who have been doing it for a while, but it is a new concept to a lot of people in that they could actually help facilitate those relationships, build their network around their community locally and not even deal with the PBMs anymore.

Mike Koelzer, Host: If I'm. On the PBM side or the big insurance side, the one way I'm gonna try to stop this is by again, the smoke and mirrors by hiding all the prices and all that kind of stuff. And if that's their goal, it seems that the goal then of us, I know that we are more valuable than just talking prices, but prices certainly have to be in there.

Scott Newman, PharmD: Yeah. Yeah. And even though it to, to you and I, it, it's an easy sell, you know, the, these benefit advisors, it's not always an easy sell because they're not always talking to the CFO or, or mm-hmm, , you know, the, the person that's in charge of the purse strings. And a lot of times, you know, these simple deals get done because, you know, the local pharmacist happens to go to the rotary with one of the local business owners, this medium, the small size, and, and they start to have a conversation and it doesn't always happen.

uh, brought up by the pharmacist. A lot of times they're just complaining about the two patients that are on $17,000 worth of medicine [00:50:00] every month. Right. And they wanna find out why that is. And they go to you as a person who deals with this stuff and there's your opportunity. Hey, you know, it doesn't have to be that much.

That drug only costs me $13,000. And certainly we could provide that through this. I, you know, we skip those guys all together, carve out your pharmacy benefit or carve out both, you know, do, do either one and, and you'll save, you know, tons of money. Yeah. And we still make a, a, a fair profit. Fair is all we want.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Right. I've always said that. I'm like, I don't want sympathy. I don't want any of that. I just want fairness. I just want to compete. Let me compete. 

Play 

Scott Newman, PharmD: playing field would do a lot for a lot of us. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: That's for sure. Scott, where are you? Five years from now? Hmm. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: I, I don't know where I'm gonna be five days from now.

Mike, that's a tough question to ask. See, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: it's that planning that I wanna do and you don't wanna do, 

Scott Newman, PharmD: I don't know. It could be, could be my ex that makes me react that way. Cuz she was very much a planner and it just doesn't do for me that didn't work out so well. Yeah, it didn't. She was planning, I guess, a long time to get rid of me.

So I didn't see it coming right. There you go. I wasn't planning on going anywhere. Yeah, I'm sorry. No, no, it's good. Everything works out the way it works out, but ultimately I've gotten by on so little for so long mm-hmm that? I don't worry about it. I mean, I have a skill set. I have, uh, the ability to provide if I want to and to what degree I want to will depend on.

Amount of BS I'm willing to put up with and it may not be any, so I, I don't know. I I've got a good friend who owns an HVAC company, said he would train me, boy, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: That's starting to look. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: I know he makes money, by the way. , 

Mike Koelzer, Host: If you told a pharmacist, now you could practically put any industry in front of them and say, it's not gonna be much, but you're gonna know where it's coming from.

You're gonna know how much it is and there's not gonna be someone in the middle, siphoning it off. A lot of 'em would say, sign me up. And that includes a lot of jobs like plumbing and HVAC and all those kind 

Scott Newman, PharmD: of things. Mm-hmm yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think we talked about it last time. I love working outside.

If I, you know, if I have to cut a lawn for 20 bucks a week to just buy a meal here and there I'll do it. Yeah. You know, in all fairness too. I mean, when I said the timing of leaving and doing what I've done, you know, and selling, it was ultimately wrapped up in the idea that I'm not gonna walk away with a whole lot of extra, if any, but I'm also going to walk away with no debt mm-hmm , um, which is nice.

And that includes my truck payment. I'm not going to have much debt other than my student loans, which are never gonna go away. But you know, I'm not gonna owe the bank anything. I'm not gonna owe wholesale or anything. I'm not gonna owe my landlord anything. And I get 

Mike Koelzer, Host: to walk away. I've done that kind of thing in my career.

You know, when I bought the pharmacy from my dad, I was always kind of like in my head, I'm always like, all right, what happens if, and it's like, okay, Worst case scenario, I'm still gonna be right side up because of this reason or that reason, you know? And then I've always done that even when I've taken on some debt during some of these screwy last five years, I've stuck around.

I think, because I know I have the assets that sort of even things out and sometimes that's bad because you do have those assets to even stuff out. Yeah. And then you're pissing, 'em away, you know? But then I think inherently, we know when the time is too roughly when the time is to jump, because it's one thing too.

still have a goal and all that kind of stuff, but you don't want to pay for a lot of your past sins with a ton of debt trying to stick something out. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: Right. I, I think if I would've, if I would've stayed the course there would've been no way of escaping that because like I said, I wasn't, my business wasn't getting any more valuable mm-hmm where, where I felt like I had to leave was when I felt like that that was going to start flipping where I was gonna have to still close.

Yeah. But yet I was gonna walk away and, you know, 8,000 thousand dollars and I'm just not willing to do that. Yeah. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I always think to myself, it's like with all the money and technology and things that people have, you still have guys like, you know, Steve jobs that are dying in their fifties. And I know he kind of avoided traditional medicine for a bit, but my point is that you still have.

Heart disease and cancer as the major mm-hmm fatal conditions and medicine in some sort is always [00:55:00] going to play a part in it because you're not gonna cut someone open every time. So there's always gonna be a need. There's always gonna be something they're swallowing or injecting. And I don't know who it's gonna be.

I think it's fair to say there's gonna be some people involved and somewhere it's not gonna be all AI and robots doing it. The tricky part in the industry is like, who's gonna be doing it and who's gonna be remunerated enough to stick around and do it. Exactly. All right. So five years, Scott, you're not giving me at least a year.

Where's a year gonna have ya. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: Well that's oh, I'm getting Melissa and I am getting married in a year. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Congratulations. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna have a real gaudy wedding at a, uh, uh, New Orleans, uh, A house that, uh, is, uh, called, um, house of bro. It's been a wedding venue for like 8,000 years. I can't remember exactly, but nice, uh, real, real New Orleans gaudy.

I can't wait. And, and my professional 

Mike Koelzer, Host: life, are you gonna be cutting lawns or are you gonna be maybe in pharmacy 

Scott Newman, PharmD: still? I've had several people send me the job posting for the mark Cuban cost plus drug company, uh, VP of new, new business, basically director PBMs. And, um, I'm thinking about maybe applying for that.

I, I, I think I do hit pretty much all the qualifications that they're looking for in that aspect. Yeah. Um, I don't know if I've got the confidence right now. Uh, you know, that that's been a hard month, but, um, I could do something like that. You know, I figure out how to monetize all this knowledge and information about the industry that I have that, you know, at least afford the idea.

Getting rid of them, you know, whatever capacity that looks like. I think it still counts. What 

Mike Koelzer, Host: is the biggest strength that you've walked away with after these nine years in business? Something that you maybe didn't have before you maybe had an inkling of it before, but through your experiences has become a strong trait for you?

Scott Newman, PharmD: A lot of my personality has carried over through, through all of it. Um, I, I would say that my, I mean, I never was a big warrior, but I could say that I've honestly developed even less of a warrior mm-hmm and I mean, I'm sure there's plenty of people around me that worry plenty for me, but I can't bring myself to be concerned about stuff like five years from now, because I just don't worry about it.

I can't do it next month cuz I just don't worry about it. It drives Melissa crazy, but to me. I've seen opportunities missed where you planned too much and I've seen opportunities missed when you didn't plan enough. And I'm really just trying to find the happy medium. So I've, I think I've developed the idea of a better sense of when to react and when not to react, mm-hmm to try to facilitate the best outcome either for myself or for my family.

Yeah. So I think that I wasn't always good at that. Mm-hmm but I would become a lot better at it. Recognizing things that, you know, give me an insight as to wait, be patient or move. Now 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Someone's listening to this right now and let's say this person is in the same position. You were two months ago, three months ago.

Mm-hmm and it's quiet. Anguishing for them. What can you say to settle their nerves? Just a bit? 

Scott Newman, PharmD: It de depends on what direction you want to go with that. If it comes down to my advice on a situation like that, where we're at advocacy and in trying to fix this, if you're there at that point where it's that bad, then get out.

You're not, you're only going to cost yourself in the long run. If you are the kind of person who just misses an opportunity to expand upon something like re-localizing care and engaging with the, the idea of the health, or is that a model, uh, benefit advisors then run with it as fast as you possibly can, cuz it's a process.

And if you can make it long enough to make it happen, then you'll be okay. Uh, if you don't have it in you, then don't keep allowing the PBMs to devalue to the point where you can't walk away with, you know, without at least minimizing your financial burden. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: It sounds to me like you're saying the time is now that you have to look inside of your individual self and be saying, do I have both the energy and the skills to do [01:00:00] something?

And then what kind of skills would those be in my mind? It's like, you better have some pretty damn good sales skills, 

Scott Newman, PharmD: But keep in mind, Mike, this isn't your father's pharmacy anymore. It's a different world, you know, just because you have the skillset to open up a pharmacy and, and, you know, get it off the ground and even maintain it for a number of years from a, uh, in business standpoint.

that's not gonna cut it going forward, unfortunately. And I think that if you're not out there creating a different model, or if you're not willing to then you, you won't make it. I wasn't really willing to, I'd rather teach it to a better coach than I am a player in this aspect. I could open up a million pharmacies and they could all run just fine, as long as there was financial support and there was a profit to be made, but I, you know, the skill's different.

You, you really have to have a broader perspective of. Or a certain level of desperation to get out there and do something to change your business model. And I, and I hate that. I, you know, the conversation seems a little down and gloomy. I mean, it's just the kind of month it's been for me, but yeah.

You know, all too often we fall victim to the, the, the cheers and the Rahz and the, and the, you know, the exemplary five people out there that are doing wonderful things. Yeah. And they get all this attention. I've never been a big fan of that. I'm more of a realist. And for the majority of us that are out there owning pharmacies, I'm the regular Joe mm-hmm and regular Joe's are probably, you know, either they haven't come to terms with it, or, um, they're not willing to change to make the inevitable not happen.

And I, you know, I don't blame anybody. Right. I don't think that that's their fault. I just think that you're, you're a victim of the circumstance just like me. And if you're uncertain, find somebody that can explain that to you. Or if you're uncertain, if you think you can do it or not, then you probably aren't going to be very successful with it.

You've really gotta have your, uh, mindset that, that it's Buster or, or succeed. And, and if you're gonna throw in like that, then you've gotta be the kind of person that's willing to hear a bunch of no's and hopefully a yes. You know, it's a different type of sailing tactic. That's for sure. Let me 

Mike Koelzer, Host: throw this out and I might be way off.

Let me get your take on it. Let's say Monday through Friday, you've gotta pretty much be making. Three calls slash email slash visits to local business people slash healthcare organizations in town a day, you gotta be making 15 contacts a week. You have to be that kind of a salesperson or that kind of aggressiveness for your business.

What do you think about that number? It's hard to 

Scott Newman, PharmD: gauge. Everybody's gonna be in a different situation obviously, but it will probably be easier to put it in terms of hours a week versus number of calls. I mean, if you're not spending 40 hours a week trying to do that or willing to, and then the other 48 year store, or even if it's 120 hours, because you're doing 80 at your store, that's kind of what it's gonna take.

Mike Koelzer, Host: It's almost gonna be a full-time job to ensure your success five years 

Scott Newman, PharmD: from now, at least until you get to that point where you've made the step into it. You know, you've, you've set it up for it to actually start happening. And when it starts happening, you know, you have to reevaluate. See if you need to do it again, you land a big client and you're, you're, you're right there with everything you get.

You know, if I added 5,000 people to my roster at a profitable margin, I'd probably be doing pretty good. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Scott, thank you again. Congratulations. 

Scott Newman, PharmD: Thank you. It feels like a congratulations. I'm not gonna lie. I mean, yeah, it's a burden lifted that's for sure. I mean, it's good and bad. It's it's, it's burden lifted.

It's sad at all. The same time. It's very, very emotional, but yet we're relieved and it's everything and nothing. It's kind of euphoric and all same 

Mike Koelzer, Host: A good friend tells me often. He says you only go down a road so far before the other roads that maybe didn't look so good before now. Look okay. Yeah, absolutely.

Your body and mind do a pretty good job of. Trying to keep you as safe as it can, you know? Yeah. All right, Scott, we're gonna get you on to talk about putt coming up. Yeah, let's do it because we had a lot of personal stuff to talk about here with your changes, but we're looking forward to getting you on soon to talk about putt and all the great stuff that they're doing.

So until that time, Scott, thank you. Thanks Mike. Talk to you soon. All right.