Work To Find Happiness | Mike Corvino, Pharm D, Podcast Host at CorConsult Rx

Speech to text:

Mike Koelzer, Host: [00:00:00] Mike for those who haven't come across you online, introduce yourself and tell our listeners what we're talking about today. 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: So my name is Mike Corvino. Um, I'm a clinical pharmacy specialist, um, with ambulatory care in a fairly qualified health center down in Charleston, South Carolina. Uh, I'm also, uh, an adjunct professor for the physician assistant program at Charleston Southern university.

So I teach all of their pharmacology pharmacotherapy. And then, uh, my, my fun job, if you will, is, uh, I'm the host of the core consult RX podcast. Um, and, uh, as well as, you know, I run the social media platforms associated with all that. And, uh, so I do a little bit of everything. Um, today we are, are gonna focus on something I think I'm pretty passionate about, and that's kind of opening doors, you know, so to speak for your career and kind of making sure that you don't get stuck in something that could potentially, uh, be not as, um, enjoyable or desirable of a position or, or job as it once was.

And just making sure that opportunities are kind of available when you need it to be. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: So when you talk about. Opportunity available when you need it to be, that leads me to believe that taking the opportunity is not necessarily. and goal, that's not necessarily the money maker at the end. Explain that 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: this is for me personally, I know everybody's kind of different.

Some people who, you know, do really well with having a very goal oriented approach, I'm just not, that's not my personality. And so for me, it was really starting core consult and all that kinda stuff. Ultimately was just a way of kind of keeping myself accountable to ensure that I was keeping up with the clinical data that was coming out and keeping my knowledge fresh.

And so for me, it wasn't even really a thought of. Can I monetize or, you know, what's the end game with all this. It was really just initial. I didn't even expect anybody to listen to my podcast initially. It was really just too kind of, I knew if I put it out in public, I wouldn't want to kind of go back and do it for a month and be like, oh, I never mind too hard.

And so I, I just did it for my own self cause I knew that I would keep doing it. If I had it, you know, come out in public and say, I'm gonna do this. If nothing else, just for my own, you know, ego or something. But, um, that really was ultimately what it was. So I never had the luxury of not having to worry so much about the monetization aspect of it.

I just kind of figured that if I had tried different avenues and, and said yes to whatever I could, um, that, that would ultimately end up in. You know, with different doors opening and things like that. And then when I started seeing some opportunities that were, you know, coming up because of the core console, that's when I started realizing, oh, this could actually be something.

And you know, so then I just kind of ramped it up even more. And it's sort of been a snowball effect since then, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: independently wealthy. You don't have to have a job and you get to sit home all day and play with the podcast. Is that right? 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: Oh, it's just spot on. No, I wish, um, you've got a 

Mike Koelzer, Host: job. So why in the hell are you doing a podcast then people will 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: ask a lot of people since that, you know, in the beginning, when I was first starting all this that you know, and this, this was, you know, early on when I was barely in, in my opinion, barely doing anything with it.

Um, compared to what it is now, you know, it was like, oh, you're gonna burn yourself out. You're gonna do this. You're gonna do that. The problem is burnout in general for, in the P anyone in, you know, the medical field, especially as a very real thing. Anyway, So it's not like I wasn't really all that worried about that aspect of.

I mean, so many people will complain about burnout. And to me, I I've, that's, I love, I'm very fortunate to the fact that I love, you know, anything to do with pharmacotherapy pharmacology. So for me, it's not, I'm not as worried about the burnout aspect because there's just an endless apply of stuff. You could keep learning and, you know, you can kind of play the game forever, so to speak.

Um, but that's, you know, again, me personally, just cause I have those interests, um, I'm just a big nerd, but, um, when I was thinking about, you know, the kind of, why going about doing this really, it started off with a comment somebody made when I was a fourth year student at MESC. Um, it was a pharmacist that I was, you know, kind of working with.

An intern technician, whatever you wanna say, you know, just in a retail setting. And I, I was talking about something I had learned on rotation that day or whatever, and the pharmacist kind of made a comment like, and didn't even mean anything negative by it just kind of blanket statement said, uh, I realize it's, you know, I'm glad you're having so much fun, like really enjoy this time, because this is kind of this, this smartest you'll ever feel.

And I don't know why? I mean, cuz it's, it's a pretty absurd comment, but I guess for whatever reason, it just really stuck with me. And I was like, oh, I mean that, that I never want to be that person. I'm like, I'm like, could you imagine like, and I've used this analogy in other talks and stuff, but I'm like, could you imagine if you went to a, you know, your, uh, office or appointment or whatever, and the, the surgeon who's gonna perform surgery on you was like, man, I just wish I was as good as I was back in [00:05:00] medical school.

Like we would, this I'd be like that. You'd be like, who, what this cuz a lunatic. Right? And so I'm like how in the heck can a pharmacist get away with saying that like a dentist, wouldn't say that like we're like the only healthcare professional that can ever under that. You know, phrase, so that's what bothered me.

And then I started, you know, you start listening to know more people complain and, you know, as people like to do. And, uh, I started hearing all these people talk about their burnout. And so of course, you know, that's why they're giving me all this burnout advice. Yeah. Because that's how they feel. Um, and so I just was like, man, I, I have got to make sure that the second I feel, you know, less than happy this job that I'm in or whatever, I end up doing that I can jump and do something else completely different if I need to and, and not feel trapped or like that I'm stuck because that's how I feel burnout really truly happens.

Yeah. Um, and so that's kind of what started the whole thing. And like I said, I really started the podcast and all that as a way of just almost like accountability to myself, to keep making sure that I was staying up with information and all that, and just kept going from there. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Mike, anybody else that is gonna learn something, you know, they'll do it with a magazine on the counter.

They don't feel a need to. Create a podcast. What was it in your personality that you thought? The podcast was the method for you to stay up on things, 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: to be honest, it wasn't even the podcast at first. It was actually, cuz I started off with posting like, you know, just drug updates or a new research account.

Yeah. On Instagram and Facebook. And then, you know, I started my podcast, I guess in January of 2018, but I had already been doing the quote consult thing on social media probably for like six months up until that. And I just kind of saw how many people, I mean, podcasting's been around for a quick minute now, but it just feels like in 2017, 18 people kind of had this resurgence of like listening to podcasts again mm-hmm and.

I was like, well, you know, I wanted to go where the attention was as far as the listeners and people paying attention to my content. And so I was getting some success with Instagram and, you know, very, very little, you know, success, but little, some followers and things like that. And so I was like, well, I just kind of progressed into a podcast.

I have a tendency and you mentioned personality. I do have a tendency. I must admit to kind of get, um, when I really like something, I get a little obsessed with it and always am trying to improve on it or get better at it. And so when I started doing some of this stuff with, you know, making videos for, you know, Instagram and things, I realized like, um, one I'm pretty terrible at.

You know, doing this recording thing and, and learning all this on the other that goes along with it. And so I wanted to get better at that. And then it was just kind of a, you know, I was like, well, I can do more long form, you know, conversations and, and actually explain some things more in depth, you know, with these people who are already looking at my little snippets on Instagram and Facebook.

So I figured it would just kind of, you know, do you know, be able to know the avenue for people who learn, um, by more, you know, deeper context. And so, uh, yeah, it just kind of went from there and then it, it, we started off with a $25 USB cheap mic. And then, um, and then I feel like every week it was like, what can I do to improve this?

What can I, you know, equipment, can we get, can I learn how to do as far as editing or whatever. And it just kind of continued on from there. If 

Mike Koelzer, Host: you're like me when, and I've done, like, let's say blog posts in the past and so on. And even today, like I was, I was using the word, I thought I was gonna use the word.

Smarmy and I, and in my mind smarmy meant kind of like, oh, just kinda thick, like laying it on, you know, kind of, uh, kind of FAK and so on. So I said, Hmm, I better check that word out. So I looked it up and it's not even a damn word. The word is smarmy, I think with an M smarmy. And the point is like, whenever I had to do something on a blog or the podcast, you know, if I wanna think of something I know the world, or, you know, in my mind, the world is probably, you know, my wife in the car and our dog listening or something like that.

When I know the world's gonna hear it, it forces me to really organize that. And I'm sure you've done some of that too, with your show that it's like, all right, I could read this, but if I'm gonna regurgitate this out, not only regurgitate, but I mean, if I'm gonna put this out under my name and my, my concept here, it better be right.

And so right. That I'm able to communicate it. Out again. 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, with that whole expression of the best way to learn something is by teaching it, you know, that's been something everybody kind of says for forever, but it really is true. And I mean, if you are preparing to be able to go out to the public, whether it's audio or video, whatever, uh, yeah.

You end up putting that time into the research to make sure it's good. Cause you know, it's gonna be scrutinized means it's the internet they're gonna hear when you do something bad, they're the first people to tell you about it. And, um, that's right. And so, and so it's something that, yeah, you end up putting that time in.

And when you put that time in, obviously [00:10:00] you end up learning the material better and that's what ultimately led to me, you know, teaching them and doing that kind of thing as well. Um, but it was like practicing, you know, it started off with the podcast and doing things, just kind of, for fun. Now it's turned into part of my career.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Someone looks for me outside and says, well, I'm never gonna do something like Mike's doing because I have a full time job. Well, so do you. And so do I mm-hmm . What would you tell somebody if they use that as their first entry into why they can't do something? 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: It depends on, I guess, what their, what ultimately will bring them happiness.

Cause I personally, and I tell everyone of my students just when they come on orientation with me, you know, I'll ask them like, what are you interested in? And, you know, I kind of explained the things that I'm involved with, not just at the clinic, but teaching and the podcasts and yada yada, and, and I'll basically tell them, like, you know, do tell me what you are the most interested in.

And we can spend time doing that. We'll obviously dabble in some of the other stuff too. But I don't ever try to push, like my work. I have a horrible, horrible work life balance. And, and so I don't try to push that on anybody because I think that a lot of people would be miserable if they worked the hours that I work.

Uh, now at the same time, if somebody's coming to me and complaining about the position that they're in or afraid of being, being in and not being able to move and, and transition or not have certain opportunities. And then their next sentence is, but I also don't have time to blah, blah, blah. I'm like, well, which one is it?

You know, one of the greatest, almost honest things a student ever told me one time, I've used him as an example multiple times. So if he ever hears this gonna like, what the heck, man. Um, but, uh, I had a student one time that, you know, I was kind of given my rah speech about, cause I used to be a lot more gung-ho about, yeah, everyone needs a side hustle and this, that, and the other.

And then he said to me, something, I was kind of giving him my rah rah nonsense. And then he said, uh, you, I'm gonna be totally honest with you. I hope this doesn't make me sound like a slack or anything, but you know, I, I, I wanna do a good job as a pharmacist, but I really want to just kind of work. He was from a small town.

He's like, I'm gonna work in an independent pharmacy and I'm, I'm gonna be okay with that. I'm gonna enjoy that. I wanna do a good job, but ultimately I just wanna make enough money so that I can go surfing whenever I want to. And, you know, kind of, yeah, that's his ultimate thing in life was surfing and, and being at the beach and things.

And I'm, I, I realized at that point, I'm like, well, I, I shouldn't be giving this kid the same advice. I would give my clone sitting in front of me because my life would make him tear. Like he would be, he would be burned out in five seconds. He would hate it. And vice versa. If I had to like the thought of, I.

Only doing in a pharmacy like content or whatever time in my career, just so that I can go surf and spend time at the beach, um, gives me like anxiety, cause I'm like, oh my God. I would feel like, yeah, I, I, I, It used to bother me taking an actual vacation and so I've gotten better at it, but it used to literally give me anxiety when I think about going on vacation.

Cause I'm like, somebody's gonna come. And you know, who's, who's grinding harder than I am and gonna outwork me cause I'm goofing off the beach and you know, I've had to reel myself in a little bit. Um, but yeah, I, I, I think it ultimately depends on what the person's end goal is with, you know, themselves and their career.

You know, you have to, if you choose like his path with the, you know, wanting to surf and all that, you also have to take into consideration at, as, you know, Hey, if something happens in dispensing, pharmacy goes away and the technology changes as it ultimately will. you kind of made the bed of, um, kind of pigeonholed into this thing and you gotta deal with those consequences, but ultimately I don't think based on getting to know him better.

So I don't think that would be an issue. I think he would just adapt and go from there. Um, and vice versa, like if somebody really wants to do like what I'm doing with different opportunities and, and, you know, different areas of, you know, pharmacy all at the same time, like, it's gonna take a lot of effort in the beginning, especially to get things going, cuz a lot of people have microphones and cameras and all that.

And yeah, you know, it's just one of those things that you can't expect it to just jump on it. And then a week later, everybody cares, you know, when people talk 

Mike Koelzer, Host: about side hustles and that I can see someone saying, well, screw you, my side hustle was pharmacy school. I just spent, you know, seven, eight years in this.

I don't want or need an extra goal. I just completed my goal. But I think what you always have to ask is when you look out at your. Peers. And you decide where your peer level is. And most pharmacists are gonna think that their peer levels, other pharmacists will then take that next step, whatever that next step is, that's where either the extra initials behind your name come in or some side hustles.

So it depends where your peer level starts. 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: Yeah, absolutely. Or, or, you know what, again, going back to like what their end goal is, if, is it to be more financially independent? Is it to do something that you just feel like a sense of accomplishment, but also had a really good job, you know, time doing it, [00:15:00] then it doesn't even have to be in the thing that you do for a living.

Like I could easily have started a podcast on, you know, mixed martial arts and, you know, grappling and all that stuff like that. And that would've been fun. I don't think I could do the same. That I like pharmacotherapy and all that. And especially with the content, you know, available and all that.

Yeah. Um, but if I, if I was already feeling burned out from my job and just didn't have that interest that I do, I would, I would probably have picked a different topic that I was passionate about. So that's the other thing, as I always remind people, it doesn't have to be exactly the way I did.

I'm just like, like I said earlier, I'm blessed that I find so much interest in my career. Um, cause I think that's kind of a rare thing nowadays. And so it's something that when I go home from work, when I start working the podcast, it doesn't feel like I'm working on stuff that I did at work. It feels completely different.

Even though they're both medical 

Mike Koelzer, Host: related, I tend to be the same way. It's like if I don't do something, you know, even though pharmacy was a goal and my business is a goal and all that, if I don't do something marching towards something else, at least for a while during the day, I feel, I feel like, like. it doesn't feel right to me if I haven't pushed hard and, and often it's not pushing the same thing, because then it just feels like more work, but it's pushing something beyond.

Mike Corvino, PharmD: Yeah. And that, that feeling of like purpose, I think is super 

Mike Koelzer, Host: important. I think that's right. Someone told me one time when you're in a pharmacy, you go in and the building in the, and it looks like a, you know, and when you leave, it looks like a, you know, and that's one of the, my favorite times in life was when I redid my basement back when I had more energy, you know, and I would just stand there day after day.

And you know, if I was working on it for. Three hours at night, I had to factor in like a half hour at night just to stand there in awe of my work, because it looks different. So when you, when you come in into A, you leave as a B, and the next day it comes in a B it leaves as a C mm-hmm . And so we don't have that in pharmacies.

And so it's nice to have, well, frankly, you know, the podcast, as you see numbers come in and episodes go up and you're marching through the week, getting out the episodes and so on. That's, uh, that's something that sometimes it's something that. Always moves forward and doesn't move backwards because of a management decision or, you know, some insurance screwing things 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: over.

Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think that's a big issue with dispensing pharmacy in general is, is that's where a lot of that comes from is everything's just, it gets monotonous. Yeah. And you'll see some different things here and there, but, you know, that's where I'm, again, kind of feel pretty blessed to work in like a clinical setting with, you know, where basically I have like, you know, collaborative practice.

So I basically have a provider status. And I see different stuff every single day. And every day it's like, oh, what, you know, what's gonna happen? What kind of crazy disease state I'm gonna have to deal with or consult on. Right. And it keeps it fresh. As I think that's important is to find whatever that looks like, you know, for somebody and if retail or dispensing is where you're stuck, that's where the side household can really help kind of fill that.

Mike Koelzer, Host: All right. So people hear this side hustle and back to you, Mike, they talk about the podcast and a lot of people are thinking of coming home at, you know, whatever, six o'clock, seven o'clock having dinner. Plopping down then they're done. Where are you getting the time? What time are you doing outside of work to do these things?

Mike Corvino, PharmD: So it depends, I mean, on what's going on and, and all that. So it's kind of variable and I've gotten a lot better at, you know, making time to relax or whatever than, you know, compared to where I was back in like 2018. Um, but I think it depends on where you're at in the process as well is, you know, like when I first started, when I graduated pharmacy school in 2015, uh, it was, I didn't actually my entire like PTO, um, you know, on my pay time off, like it was allotted to me from 2015 to 2018, I, I guess was May, 2018.

So it was like three years. Exactly. Basically I, I used completely on. Going to volunteer at clinics or like, helping with lectures or in labs and things like that, just so I could continue to learn and continue to, you know, educate myself and, and things. I didn't do anything like quote unquote fun.

And then on my days off, cause I was working like 14 hour shifts at, um, a dispensing pharmacy at the time. And so on my days off, cause I had more days off during the week than I had nine to five would. And uh, I would do the same thing I would go and I'd go to like the resident, um, halls and, and if they were having a topic discussion on cardiovascular disease or whatever, I'd just go sit in the back and listen.

And like, I, I got the schedule for like all the journal clubs and all that, sit that in the other and I'd just go do that on my, on my free time days that I worked. Um, and then when my [00:20:00] schedule changed to like nine to five, like it is now, um, it was just kind of auditing my time and figuring. Where I can spare some moments or where I can do this and do that.

And I came home at five and my wife didn't get off work until nine. Um, then I'm gonna spend those four hours or just, or three hours or whatever it is at least going through, you know, as much stuff as I can for the podcast or whatever. And then there's definitely times where, you know, and I sh I always hesitate to say this cause I don't wanna, I don't ever wanna.

You know, sleeping less or anything like that. Cuz sleep is super, super important from a healthcare standpoint, as well as, you know, everything else. And so I am, I always hesitate to say this, cuz I don't I'm this is not something I'm advising, but because I'm spread so thin. Um, one of my kind of like just habits and I would say a bad habit probably at this point is, uh, every Monday night.

So tonight for example, um, I, I end up staying up all night and trying to get as much stuff knocked out while the house is quiet. And I've just done that for like three years now. What does all night mean? Like I don't go to sleep throughout. like throughout the night now wait a 

Mike Koelzer, Host: minute, wait a minute. You get home at five on Monday night and 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: I don't go to sleep until Tuesday night and you're not gonna sleep tonight.

Right. And again, I'm, I'm saying it cause I know like, it sounds terrible and again, I'm not advocating for that. It's just, um, something that I'm, and I know it's probably, it's not good for me or anything like that, but I'm gonna put on willing to make that, uh, you know, decision and that knowing that hopefully I'll be able to get some of these things accomplished, um, that I need to get accomplished.

And that's why I said I'm very particular about not recommending that. Cause I know it's not a good idea. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I'm gonna ask you one word mm-hmm to tell me why you are gonna stay up all night until Tuesday night. You get one word to tell me what's the driving force behind that obsession, obsession. 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: I, I, I want.

This, you know, core consult thing I want it to do as well as it can. And I want to be, I wanna leave a legacy in the world of medicine and pharmacy pharmacotherapy, and I will do anything I need to do with the exception of, you know, I put my wife first, but other than that, I will do anything and everything to, to myself or whatever I need to do to accomplish that goal.

Even if it means not sleeping as much as I probably should. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: All right, now let's go on the other side there, the goal, we talked about core consulting and obsession, and so on with that obsession of saying, I wanna do this, what does this look like in 30 years? What is this that you're obsessed with? 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: To be honest, I don't even really have a, uh, A true, like definition of that.

Like I, when I say, I guess the example I always think of is I had a professor, um, his name is, uh, Wayne wort. Um, and he's in his early seventies now and he's one of the most accomplished pharmacotherapy specialists, Pharm D, that's ever lived. And he he's some, he's somebody that, you know, he's in his seventies and still speaks, you know, especially prior to COVID was speaking like 150 days, plus outta the year at every conference, you can imagine, um, he just, um, receiv, he's the first pharmacist in history as of this year to get, um, a, uh, award from the American college of physicians and the, the, one of the precursors or, uh, prerequisites rather is to, you have to be a physician to get this award and they literally voted and.

Uh, an exception of the role, just because to give them this. Because he's won every other award in academia and pharmacy. That is a lot of the pharmacists and they just, they needed to, they wanted to present him with something that was like a true honor. And he's touched so many people's lives. He's he's, he's helped so many students.

He helped me out tremendously in my career. And I think, you know, and I look at someone like him and he's also one of the most humble people you'll ever meet, nicest guy I've ever talked to. And when I see someone like him, I. He, he changed like the game almost when it comes to like, he, he showed what a true clinical pharmacist could do.

And it was something that when he decided to be a clinical pharmacist, there was no, like, there wasn't a clinical pharmacist to like, You know, in that position at that time, that was like a thing. He, in fact, he, he always quotes. Um, when he, when he was like, I guess, you know, undergrad level, he had told a pharmacist that he knew at the time, um, you know, that what, that his, he, he was gonna be a pharmacist, but he was gonna do it in, uh, a clinical pharmacist to like educate providers on medication and pharmacotherapy.

And the guy asked him, he's like, you know, are you smoking pot, boy? Why are you, uh, why do you think that's not a real thing for pharmacists? And he's like, I, I, this is what I'm gonna do. And he went and he was one of the first people to like, kind of take on that role and, [00:25:00] um, had an amazing career and still does.

He retired several years ago and still goes to the college of pharmacy pretty much five days a week . I guess he doesn't truly understand how retirement works, but, uh, they just let him keep his office and everything. He still goes. And yeah, he made such an impact on me that I'm like, if I can work towards being any sort of, you know, Like, like, I guess end goal, it would be to emulate his career and, and, and add something to the world of pharmacy at the end of the day.

And 

Mike Koelzer, Host: That's a noble goal. Then I'm just digging mm-hmm is the goal then the obsession is it too, and I know he's just one example. Is it to emulate that kind of impact or is it the actual impact of clinical pharmacy or don't, you know, yet what specific area you want to impact? Is that still to be discovered?

Mike Corvino, PharmD: I, I want to impact, you know, pharmacotherapy in general, not necessarily like one, a like disease state, or like yeah. Research on one drug or anything, but the way. Pharmacotherapy is taught the way that pharmacotherapy is kind of thought about as far as the true understanding behind what's going on with all yeah.

All the, you know, medications and, and management whatsoever. Um, and so it's something that, yeah, again, I have a hard time even kind of articulating what my end goal is. Um, yeah, just because I, I, like I said, I just wanna be able to like, make an impact and, and leave a legacy on the world of pharmacy, whether that's in a specific state, you know, disease state, or in academia or whatever that may look like.

And to be honest with you, as long as it's impactful, I'm not gonna be disappointed. Um, and really my whole thing is I'm having so much fun doing like already on this journey to begin with. That's really what it's all about is the thought of getting and working towards something that could potentially take me 40 years to get to that.

That to me is. Pretty cool. Like, I like that cuz I get bored easily with certain things and yeah, there's the, you could spend the next 40 years trying to learn as much as you can about pharmacotherapy and then realize you've barely scratched the surface and yeah, it, to me, that's exciting to me like that's that mountain that I get to climb forever until it's time to punch the clock.

Do you have 

Mike Koelzer, Host: metrics that kind of get you excited, whether it's podcasts, listeners, uh, responses on LinkedIn, your own knowledge, you found out that, you know something now you didn't know two years ago, what kind of metrics do you have? What kind of things right now, if any kind of fire up that dopamine a little bit and yeah, 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: honestly, my only true metric that I really care about.

Do I find happiness in what I'm doing? Um, as far as the numbers and the listeners and all that one, I've always tried to keep everything in perspective. You know, when I always get a hundred downloads on an episode of a bit, a podcast that I put out mm-hmm , I mean, by podcasting standards, that's like nothing, but if you think about a hundred people, like in a room, like that's, that's what I say.

That's preposterous that a hundred people would give a crap about what I have to say. That's exactly what I say. So to me, I'm like, I've always thought about that. I mean, we were, when we started getting, you know, multiple people downloading the episodes, I was like, wow, like, this is insane to me that people like, I can't imagine with I'm like, you guys have nothing going on if you're listening to my nonsense.

And so it, that always just blew my mind that people are like, you know, a hundred people follow you on Instagram. It's like a hundred people give a crap about what I have to say. Yeah, whatever that to me was huge. I mean, I'd be happy if five people had cared about what I had to say. Right. And so I never really worry too much about the metrics and things.

Cause I mean, now, you know, we're, we'll get 25,000 downloads a month and um, you know, I know, and we're in like, just about, I think we're only, there's only like 30 countries that are pub casts that are not downloaded monthly. And so it's crazy to think about how they reach now and like the people I get to interact with and stuff, but I still always go back.

I mean, that's, that, to me seems absurd now that that, that many people are listening, let alone, you know, I I've always just been, I was excited at the point when a few people were listening, so it's just all been icing on the cake as far as that goes. And, yeah, I just, I've had such a good time with doing, you know, with building this, that as far as the, you know, financial metrics or things like that, it was like once, once.

You know, I made six figures, which most pharmacists will. It's like, I have plenty of stuff I don't need, you know, I feel very comfortable. Um, my wife's a pharmacist, so we live very comfortably. I'm not worried about things financially. And we have that luxury of, of feeling that. So I don't need to make any more money.

We've [00:30:00] definitely, you know, as a result of all this, have been able to make a lot more, but it's, it, wasn't something I needed either. And it's not like if I, if I couldn't have that anymore, that my life would just be ruined. So it wasn't really money that was driving it to begin with. Um, it's nice. I, you know, I like that we can, you know, Buy nice cars or whatever, but it's great.

But, um, you know, it's not, it wasn't a driving factor. And so I really just, I never really had any expectations of, it was just, for me, it was just to keep making sure that I'm learning and, and yeah, I, it definitely feels that Domine release. I feel like you said, you know, whenever I am explaining, you know, a concept of evidence based medicine or pharmacotherapy, and I can see like in a student or another, provider's like that light bulb moment.

Like I love that feeling. And so the more that I learn, the more of those types of moments I can have, cuz I, ultimately at the end of the day, like educating. And so that kind of continues to bring me happiness, which again, like I said at the beginning, is kind of my only real metric that I care about and everything else is just icing on the cake.

Mike Koelzer, Host: My wife and I were driving yesterday and we're going down the highway and I've played parts of my podcast before, you know, and we're going down the highway and I kind of out of the blue, she said, I listened. 15 minutes of your podcast. And I said, "Why'd you do that? She said, well, I was exercising and it, I was listening to something and it came on as the next thing.

So I said, oh yeah, that's interesting. And I said, uh, how'd you like it? She said, "That's okay. She said, she said, you know, in the 15 minutes you talked about stuff that probably could have been covered in about, you know, 10 seconds. And I said, yeah. And then I told her, you know, my mission from the very start and I have this written right in my podcast.

It's it's to be. interesting and entertaining. Mm-hmm , you know, and I knew that, and that comes just sometimes from conversations. Why do people watch late night TV? You know, you don't learn something new. Why do people watch movies? You know, it's just sometimes something to do. And what I think it does. And Mike, I'm guessing this is your listeners too.

That a lot of times I listen to stuff I already know. I'll watch a documentary on something that I'm already fairly comfortable with. I'll read the pharma book on stuff that I kind of know already. And you read financial advice that you kind of already know. I think sometimes the podcasts and what we're putting out and maybe what we're listening to gives a sense of community or a sense of yeah.

I'm part of that group. And it just sort of is comforting to know that. Yeah. I understand what they're saying and it means I'm still maybe a part of something. 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I also like it that from a podcasting standpoint specifically, I I'm, I'm not like the cookie cutter. Pharmacy student like back, you know, when I was in school and, and I wasn't necessarily even a really good student, to be honest, I like learning, I love learning, but I like doing it kind of by my terms, so to speak, I'm a very like kinetic learner.

And so when, one of the things that I kind of was thinking about when I was first kind of talking through like, you know, the podcast and stuff like that was, I want it to be higher level, like pharmacotherapy and evidence-based medicine, but like with the coffee shop, very relaxed vibe. Cause I feel like, especially when it comes to medical education, everything's very stereotypical, like, and it's getting a lot better, but I feel like it's for so long, it's just been like, you have to stand a certain way and talk a certain way.

And it's just not how I am, I'm not like that. And yeah, so I don't talk like that in my normal day to day conversations and so on. And even with patients, I'm, I'm a lot more laid back, especially with the, you know, population that I work with and. I just wanted that, you know, kind of vibe if you will, um, from my podcast.

So people that are like me, that didn't fit the cookie cutter mold of what you're supposed to look like as a pharmacy student could also have an avenue to keep up with information and, and hear it in a way maybe that they hadn't haven't heard it and maybe it would help and make it click a little bit better.

Yeah. Then, a lecture. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I tell my kids that we're in a very unique time right now because there's virtually no middleman. Maybe there's a middleman still for book publishing on the big printing level. And maybe there's a middle man for Hollywood movies still besides that though. Yeah. As far as, you know, podcasting, writing, publishing your own stuff, blogs, all that.

It's a beautiful time. Oh, absolutely. With that said, where would you have taken this [00:35:00] energy? 30 years ago, before blogs, before the ability to podcast, where would you have been able to focus that energy? Now your energy is spread out to, you know, thousands and thousands of people. They all get a little piece of mic.

Where would the energy go though? 30 years ago 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: to, I guess it would have to be more on the traditional. the traditional route of like academia and publishing and things like that. But to be totally honest with you, I, I don't know. It's one of the reasons I'm very grateful that I live in the time and yeah.

In which we do for sure, because, yeah. I don't know. Um, like you said, it's so easy now to get your voice out there and get things accomplished, whether it's, you know, creating music or podcasts or, um, yeah. Even book publishing now. I mean, you, anybody can get a book published on Amazon and you can make tons.

I mean, sure. It's so easy now. And it's something that if you're not sure to do you just Google it and follow there's the answer right there for free. Perfect. Yeah. Um, it's just I feel like almost now, like. You know, this, my generation and the, you know, the group coming up, even after me, it's just kinda like, it's so easy now compared to like how it was for like my grandparents' age of pharmacist or, you know, what have you that I almost feel like an obligation to take advantage of it cuz it's like, they, I can't even imagine like having to go to like the library and like look all the stuff up that I do instead of doing it for my couch or my iPhone.

I mean, it's just, it's crazy to me how difficult things were and, and as technology continues to improve and stuff, I feel like it's gonna get even easier and easier for access to information to get more widespread. So yeah. I don't know what that would look like. I, I like to think that I would figure it out.

Um, but I don't know. Uh, there's probably a lot of people that wanted to be musicians or wanted to do something 30, 40 years ago that couldn't have, if they had been born 40 years later, would've been who, who knows. And I. Yeah. I just basically think about it as far as gratitude, if I'm grateful that I was born when I was born.

And let's see how it goes. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You had mentioned that you like to move forward. So somebody else is not moving forward in your same area. You know, you wanna stay one step ahead of the competition. And I think with social and podcasting and all that kind of stuff, a lot of times when it's relatively new, you can basically say I'm gonna put a shiny cover on this and take a look at me just because you're looking at me and my stuff, but also it's new that you're looking at the newness of podcasting and social and all that kind of stuff.

And that's writing my behind where the day is coming. It's like, you know, the, the new. Is not there anymore. And now it's going to be quality, you know, on top of that newness, because the novels have worn off. 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: Yeah, absolutely. To be honest, that's something I've tried to kind of be cognizant about as I've gone through this process.

I mean, for that reason, I actually don't even like, edit anything on my podcast. Like I literally hit a record. We finish and I upload, I don't care. It doesn't matter if we mess up, it doesn't matter if we say, um, because my thought process initially was, that's how I talk. I mean, you'll hear me talking about evidence based study that was published in, you know, New England journal medicine.

I'll be saying, you know, and then you know, this dude, you know, blah, blah, in my mind, I'm like, ah, I probably shouldn't have said dude, whatever. Um, but who cares? I'll just, and I'll still post it because my thought was that if I like speaking live somewhere and I say, um, or I say, you know, whatever, I, I don't want people to be like, have this idea of who I am or, or what.

You know yeah. They, they see on or here on the recording or video and then see me live like, who's this guy. And, and so I literally just like, I've tried to be as authentic as I possibly can to this whole process, knowing that it's just a matter of time, but if you're not like that you'll get exposed.

Um, and, and overall just, I know my intent with everything is in the right place. I know I'm not doing any of this because I'm just trying to make myself look awesome or because I wanna do whatever, um, or I wanna make money off people or whatever. I know that's like, the stuff will come along the way, but I, my intentions have always been just to promote education and, and evidence based medicine.

And so I feel like by kinda keeping that the focus and not ever trying to paint myself in a position. You, you know, you I've heard, I've said on my own podcast multiple times, I'm like, I'm an idiot in a lot of areas. So I, I don't ever try to promote myself in this way of like, oh, everyone needs to listen to me.

That's why I'm so open about it, I can't believe people listen to my podcast. I'm like, you guys know like New England Journal of Medicine and Jamma, they have podcasts. Like, what do you listen to me for? Like 

Mike Koelzer, Host: with your podcast that lends itself. Well, there's a nice combination of that coffee house feel with the very structured pharmacy stuff.[00:40:00] 

I added the crap outta mine. I think that guests leave the podcast after they get done recording with me. And they say, how the hell does that guy have a show? It took him about five minutes to ask a question, but then I got to edit it. And it comes out. I sound like a thespian 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: yeah, no. And that's, and most people do edit their podcast.

I probably, it's probably not the right method to not do it like I do, but it is just one of those things. Like we just kind of came up with that in the very beginning and Cole and I agreed. And so we were just kind. Kept going 

Mike Koelzer, Host: with it. I think that lends itself well to what you're doing. I really do because you've got the firmness and the softness of a, because like you say, who needs it?

Who, who needs a medical, if you started editing your stuff too much, it's like, just gimme the film strips from pharmacy class. I'll watch those. So that sounds like the way to go, not to, not to edit it. 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: And I want it to be approachable too. You know, I, I feel like so many people in the medical world are so arrogant and there's so much ego and they got themselves on this pedestal of like, oh, I have accomplished this.

I've heard professors say things like, you know, to students, you may not like me, but you will respect me cuz I have a farm day. Yeah. I'm like, oh geez. Like that, like please don't, I've joked on. Like, if you ever hear me say anything remotely like that, please just smack me in the back of the head. Like I, I hate that kind of attitude.

And I feel like when. if I can do the, the respect and the, the, the, all that, you know, respect of your knowledge and things that will come. If you prove it, you don't have to act a certain way or talk a certain way. Um, despite, you know, popular belief, the, the Stu you know, the students and stuff will respect you, especially if you're more relatable and you don't present yourself on this pedestal, like, I never try to put myself up with students and, or, or above anybody and try to act like I'm something special.

And I, I feel like that ultimately makes you a lot more approachable for people to end up asking questions and 

Mike Koelzer, Host: things like that. Speaking about asking questions, I heard you commenting in your podcast about getting a lot of feedback and so on from LinkedIn. And now you're becoming a, I forget, I think Cole called you a seamless celebrity and you were looking for something below Z or something like that.

That's kind of cool. So, but you're getting, you're getting a lot of feedback and that's pretty cool with the feedback cuz you really see what people what's. Podcasts are hard because there's not a really great comment section for podcasts. And so it's cool to see the social media that comes in because you can kind of see where with the questions that come in, what direction people want to go.

Hmm, 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: absolutely. And, and taking the time to actually answer those questions too. That's yeah. That's the thing that blows my mind too, is when, especially when someone's like first starting out, it's like, oh, well, you know, I don't have time to answer these three messages. And I'm like, oh man, how are you gonna be okay.

Like, I mean, yeah, right. I talk to students literally every single day on Instagram, multiple students from all over the world, not just the, you know, the US and I do my absolute best to answer everyone via my texting platform or email or on social media. Because like the fact that those people have taken the time to reach out and stuff and actually listen to your content like that, to me, doesn't go unnoticed.

And I feel like that can sometimes when you start doing this kind of stuff can become like, almost like a feeling of like, oh, I can't believe I have to answer blah, blah, blah. I'm like, but that patient or that person is taking the time out of their work schedule and their education to listen to what you have to say, which ultimately will in the end.

Bring me more opportunity and more attention and stuff. Yeah. So it's like, why would I be, you know, irritated about that and like, or not take the time to do that or whatever, to me, that's a super important aspect of this whole thing is, is engaging in networking. And, um, I've gotten some really cool opportunities that came from just as simple direct message as somebody sent me on Instagram, initially 

Mike Koelzer, Host: thinking about the podcast and I haven't monetized the podcast and I don't know if I ever will.

And well, it was actually, my wife was in the car when she was listening to me, when she was listening to my boring 15 minutes. And she said, she said she wasn't pressing me. She was just like, you know, someday if you monetize it. And I'm like I said, my cause I've got maybe five years left in the profession, you know, 5, 5, 8 years.

And. I think my monetization of the podcast comes when for some reason I'm no longer at my pharmacy and then I'm out in the market. And I think my monetization comes with a little bit of comfort that with the podcast compared to not having the podcast three years ago, I'm closer to. Writing out my career, [00:45:00] if necessary doing something, I like getting paid for it because of the connections I made.

So I can't put a monetization value on it and it may never be a monetization value, but it might be a livable salary with a job I love if ever needed. That might be what the monetization is. I don't 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: now. Absolutely. I agree. A hundred percent, um, like this year was the first or 2021 was the first year that we actually made money off sponsorships and stuff like that.

But originally, I had no interest in even trying to monetize the podcast at all. Um, and, but because of the podcast and because of the stuff through Instagram and all that, you know, that brought about an opportune one, it might be the clinic job that I'm in now. Um, you know, that, that came about because of that, the teaching at the physician assistant school that, you know, I, I never would've thought that I'd be lecturing.

Period, let alone. And if I did, it would probably, I would've assumed it would've been in a, uh, you know, a farm school. And so for me to like, be the only phar D on staff with a PA school and actually lecture and spend all the time with the MDs and PAs. It's like that, that wasn't even on my radar. And so that's an opportunity which brought me a significant pay jump of, you know, when you add that onto my already my salary.

Yeah. And then, you know, the speaking engagements, and now I'm a paid speaker for, uh, hepatitis C medication. I don't know if I'm allowed to say it or not, but, um, so I'm a paid speaker for them. And, uh, you know, I'm talking to a couple other pharmaceutical companies about some speaking gigs and, and some other, you know, avenues that way that, you know, ultimately I know I'm making a lot more money now than I did when I first graduated.

Yeah. And so it's hard, like you said, to put a specific number of like, Hey, if you do this many episodes, you'll get this much money. But ultimately I know, like I was saying earlier, I know one, I feel, you know, fulfilled and happy in my career and I know that I'm, uh, ultimately on paper making more money too.

So it's kind of a win-win. Yeah. I'm 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Just standing back on this, looking at you thinking, if you would've narrowed that down to a monetization slash, maybe what we call a side hustle, you might be out in a corner selling flowers or something like that. You know what I mean? Because he is like, I'm gonna get my buck of flower out of this and you know, I'm going to monetize it and that's gonna be my metric to tell if I'm successful or not.

But. What you have done is worth hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars worth career choices and things like that. So if you, if you did a direct monetization, it never would've paid off for you, like it is now. And what's 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: weird is I kind of ordered, I knew that from the very beginning, there's actually a video of me on YouTube, um, talking at a, uh, so a conference, um, like a little like a fireside chat type conference.

Mm-hmm um, it was like September, 2017. I think I had just started core consulting. And that was one of the questions like that. One of the older, like business guys that was listening to, and he's like, well, I mean, how do you monetize all this? I said, it's not about that. It's about the opportunity that creates.

And he rolled his eyes at me and just, he's like, all right. And just kinda like, and I left early and stuff like that. And I always kinda laugh now thinking about that guy. Cause I'm. You know, it's, it's working out pretty well and, and I'm really happy with the way things are going. And as far as I'm, I feel like I'm barely even outta the driveway with where I want to go with this.

So it's like the fact that I'm already having some success with, you know, whether it's financial or however you want to, you know, um, you know, look at it. It's something that I like, I know it's progress and I know what it still could become. And so that, I mean, yeah, it's, I've never looked at it as far as that, that short thinking of like, of, you know, oh, how can I monetize this right now?

I feel that's why so many things are in the world of pharmacy in general, like re-distributing pharmacies and, and especially big chains. Pharmacies are, all those things are in such, such trouble. Cuz everybody thinks about things, you know, in the moment or the, the one year goals, the five year goals. And I'm like, how do you create something?

Knew that then just can change, change things up for you entirely, and then make the money on that end versus like, oh, I'm just gonna make this short term decision. You know, I could have made short term decisions early on with certain sponsors and things, but I didn't believe in the product. So I'm like I'm gonna sell this product or, or advertise this product that I think is trash and then potentially ruin my credibility in the medical field because people listening also are gonna know it's trash, cuz they're all medical professionals.

And then I'm supposed to be like, oh, you know, but at least I made a hundred bucks or 200 bucks what, you know, whatever it is, it's such short term thinking. And I feel like so many people get caught up on that aspect as opposed to, you know, I'm a much bigger believer. And even if there's not a specific way to show the financial growth in the short term, how can we open up as many different doors as possible so that financially we can choose which one we're gonna walk into or multiple doors later down the road.

That's a lot more interesting. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I could have monetized this to [00:50:00] the tune of a few ads in the show or something like that. But boy, you can also, I don't know if offend the right word, but you can, as soon as somebody, I mean, we all have a right to make money, but to make, you know, a hundred bucks as you were mentioning, you know, it's like, it's not, it's not worth the interruption of your listeners for that money.

It's just not worth the interruption. They start interrupting 'em too much and they go away, I guess, you know, and I'm in it for that. Long haul is not worth a hundred bucks to me to do something like that. It's, it's worth a hundred thousand in a career and a job and doing this and doing that kind of stuff, but not, not a hundred 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: bucks, but even a hundred thousand dollars.

If it's something that you don't truly believe in or want, that's right. Because then you ruin your career, especially that medical world. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Well in me, I was talking about a hundred thousand as symbolic of getting a job out of it. Yeah. You know, that's where a 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: huge monetization is. Absolutely. And I totally, I get what you're saying.

I'm just throwing that in there as well . Even if it was a substantial amount of money, I always go back to like, this is gonna be recorded forever. And, and, and I'm like, I can't go back in five years. Like, there's literally, like, you know, I've talked to a company about potential sponsorship and I, I told 'em straight up.

I'm like, I have literally, I can't, I've crapped all over your product in multiple episodes and I've called it trash and all this stuff. I, I can't, I'll be a liar. Like, I, my integrity is not worth whatever you're gonna offer me. And that was for thousands. And I'm like, I just can't do it. Cause I'll make the money eventually anyway.

So I'm not going. Sell my, uh, my soul, so to speak. Um, plus then it gives me the freedom of, I can really say what I believe. And then when I do sell a product, like our, our, um, our sponsor pearls that we had for the last several months, like I really truly like that app. And I use it myself. Yeah. So it was an easy sell cuz I, I like the product and everybody knows that if I don't like it, I'll be real honest and tell you I've 

got 

Mike Koelzer, Host: a few people that will probably never advertise with me.

One would be the opaque PBMs. Next on that list is maybe some of the PSS and maybe some of the wholesalers even, I don't think they're gonna be, um, knocking down my door too soon. But as an old fart, I mean, it's like, I've spent forever kind of like, you know, in the business, like, I mean, I don't always do this, but you know, the customers right.

Kind of thing. I don't always go for that, but you know, the cliche of that stuff, you know, and when I started this, it's like, I'm gonna give it honest. I'm gonna give it, you know, as. Truthful and open as I can be like, that's part of the beauty of not having a direct dollar tied to it because you're not, you're not changing anything for anybody.

Really. I think people like that, just like you're, non-ED editing. I think they like the, some of my non-filtered absolutely griping 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: about stuff and, and the people who. Like cool. Like, I mean, that's the beauty of it, like the, the, you know, I have people that I'm sure don't like my style of podcasts.

I've heard some of the comments, I mean, some of 'em are pretty funny, but some of the bad comments we get, you know, and like how our stuff is, so, you know, stupid or like are low level and all this stuff. Yeah. I like, I know that stuff's not true. And so, but I'm like cool and go. That's probably someone who needs to be listening to a more lecture style podcast.

Good for them. Awesome. I don't know why they felt the need to, you know, spend their time running me a bad comment, but, um, whatever. That's cool. That's a sad state. I mean, yeah, exactly. And I mean, unless it makes me laugh, there's been a few of 'em that have been like, oh, that was a good one. Um, those are pretty funny.

I'll usually read those on my podcast, but, um, not to encourage anyone to leave back comments, but just, you know, being on. But I think it all comes back to that authenticity of it. Like that's how I handle it. You know, hit like problems in my real, like if I'm dealing with something and somebody's being a complete jerk or trying to put me down a lot of times, I, I do think it's kind of funny cuz I'm like, I can, you know, I'm my, I'm my own biggest critic, but you know, so there's no way they're gonna say anything that I haven't thought myself anyway.

And so it's like, yeah, yeah, that's cool. That was a good one. You know, good. You know, I just think I'm very, I like, I take things very, you know, in stride and like usually apply comedy to my own, you know, stuff just, that's how I handle my, you know, issues and things. And I feel like that it it's, it keeps things authentic and it keeps things kind of, you know, you know, flowing because you don't care too much about like, oh if this person doesn't like this, like there's always gonna be people that don't like your content or have something to say, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, if you don't have somebody not like it, you're not doing anything.

Yeah. Then you're just putting out a, you know, Wikipedia article exactly. Or something like that with a computer voice, reading it. Mike, the guy that told you that. It was a waste of time, not monetizing. If you could put yourself in his shoes. What do you think his reasoning for looking at you and shaking his head about you not going after it right 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: away?

To be honest, I mean, I don't blame him for that response. I mean, he's, he's everybody there that was, that was like listening and stuff were either medical [00:55:00] professionals or like business owners or entrepreneurs. Yeah. He, he was, you know, at least looked a part of someone who was well off and things like that.

Yeah. Um, carried himself in a, in a way like that, you know, so to speak. And so he probably probably had been successful in his career and he probably had, um, you know, been a successful entrepreneur or whatever the case may have been and probably a smart guy. Um, he is also sitting there as a much older guy looking who's been successful looking at some 27 year old, just talking, you know, blah, blah, blah, who hasn't accomplished anything yet.

So I don't blame him at all for having that response. I mean, it, it, you know, he also came up in a time where. It was a very different world. And so I, I don't blame him for the way he would view things or think about things. Or I hear, you know, people in my own family, like my brothers in the, like in the music world and, and I'll hear people say, oh, you can't make a good living at that.

And it's like, my brother's 11 years younger than I am. And so I'm just kinda like, yeah, you really can. Now it's a lot easier than it was 30 years ago. Yeah. And so, but it's like, you not gonna, am I gonna waste my time having that energy with my grandma? It's like, no, you know, she grew up through the great depression and all that.

So it's like, I don't, I don't expect her to understand how Spotify and SoundCloud monetization works. And so it's just something that I, yeah, I don't, I didn't think anything of it then. I don't think anything of it now. I just thought it was kind of funny the way he kinda blew it off, but I totally understand why he did that.

And I didn't take any offense to that. Like, you know, it is what it is. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: And I think a lot of the old farts you're too young for this Mike, but I mean, they're dabbling in that with sitting with a microphone, speaking into a cassette. Tape thing where they pressed play and record. At the same time, you had to press down the black, modern orange button at the same time.

And it went to an audience of one. They don't realize that when they look at you, they're looking at CBS, you know, or NBC, or, you know, some radio, huge radio station. You know, it's like, it's a different world, absolutely talking about jobs. I got, one of my daughters is, uh, she wants to be a beautician. She always wants to do my wife's nails.

I've got a, my best friend comes over and she paints his nails, all kinds of colors. He's not on the job. So it works well for him. but 10 years ago you heard about that or 15 years ago and you. Oh fine. Someone else is gonna go to college and you're gonna, and you're gonna be in your, your little hair cutting place.

And, you know, just, just smoking and having coffee with the girls and the little diner there. And now it's like, holy crap, you know, with Instagram and tick doc and, you know, blowing it up worldwide. And it's like, I envy someone like that. That's got a beautician goal or something like that with social media behind them.

Yeah. Well, 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: and, and honestly like, yeah, you're a hundred percent, right. For one you like, you could be, I mean, extremely successful doing something like that nowadays. It's so easy to get your name out there and your work out there, but even going, even if it looks, even if things hadn't changed and looked.

The person who was the beautician, like sitting in the, you know, in the building with eating, drinking, coffee and smoking and talking with the girls and just kind of have, if that person is truly like, happy in what they're doing good for them. Like who, who am I to be like, oh, if you're not conquering the world, like, well, I, I just, I don't know.

Like I said, from the very beginning, I have no interest in trying to push my workload balance or my personality or whatever on anybody else. Like, I ultimately want someone to feel happiness and feel fulfilled. Like I do. Yeah. And so, whatever that looks like for them is good for them, if that's not the same, I mean, there's plenty of people who are way smarter than I figured out , way better than I ever will be.

And so, and they're happy, so good. Do you know? Yeah. Do what works and then don't be afraid. Like if something doesn't work. You know, say, oh, that was a bad idea. Try, you know, try something different and, and pivot and, you know, whatever. I, I just, I think no matter what the situation is, that's the metric that so many people just don't think about is like, are you happy doing what you're doing?

And if you are great, um, you know, if you're complaining about how much money you make or don't make or whatever, then you need to take the endo, you know, into account. Well then maybe you need to do something different. Then 

Mike Koelzer, Host: happiness is a big thing and you go back to it. And I keep going to, you know, goals and the why of this and so on.

But happiness is a big thing. And as I stop and look at it, talking about the monetization part, this makes me happy because it spreads me out. Makes me more secure when I'm more secure, I have the potential and actually. protecting my family, providing for them. And then ultimately on my deathbed that makes me happy that I cared for the ones that were put in my care and so on.

And I suppose right now, for me, it's setting up the most opportunities for that to continue and hopefully continue in a, in a purposeful way. And that's, and that's what you talked about, you know, starting all this because of wanting to continue it in a purposeful way that is 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: engaging to you. [01:00:00] Yeah. And, and, and I think like you were saying, you kind of bring it back towards the.

You know, goals in, in, in career movement and things, because that is ultimately what does help you to feel happiness and fulfill? Yes. Cause I'm the same way. If I'm talking to a room full of me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna sit there. And, and my, my competitive trash talking side will be, I, you know, I will bleed outta my eyes before I let you guys beat me at something.

Let's go like, that's, that's my real, what I feel for me. I just. And I've gotten better at realizing that so many people are not like that. And that's okay too. Like I just, I ultimately, that's what brings me happiness and that competition is what brings me happiness. And so, you know, I, I just am very self aware about that, you know, in my own life.

But I also know that that life would bring anxiety and stress and all kinds of issues for somebody else who doesn't have my personality. And yeah, I think you gotta find out what, and be really honest with yourself. I think the, you know, having a podcast or something like that is like on a pedestal now amongst like some of the students and stuff, but I'm like, you know, it might sound cool and everything, but is it truly gonna make you happy or provide you with opportunities that are gonna make you happy?

Are you just doing it because it's the popular thing now to do, or like the cool thing, or like what you think a good clinical pharmacist or whatever is supposed to be an influencer, whatever dumb term you want to use. And, you know, I just think too many people are yet so caught up on like, What you're quite unquote supposed to do.

And I just, I have zero interest in that conversation of what you're supposed to do. I'm all about trying, which you're not supposed to do. And let's just see who it is, how that works out. And, and like, let's just go from there 

Mike Koelzer, Host: as your side hustle and as your secondary thing to add either extra money or extra joy to your life, it's almost like really, really focus on what you love, but then use every tool that's out there now to your advantage, to grow what you love and share that with the world.

Mike Corvino, PharmD: Absolutely. And, and making sure, especially if from a medical field, if you're not really sure what that looks like, like one, make sure that you stay up to date with information, and audit your time to see how much the whole continuing education, like. Your requirement to renew your license is so preposterously low.

You know, it's, if you're only doing like the 15 or 20 hours or whatevers a year, if that's all you've learned in a year, like, oh my gosh, you need to give your farm feedback. Like, holy cow, like that's insanity to me that people would spend that much, that little time on education. I mean, for their own life, when you're dealing with other people with health issues, it's crazy to me.

And also when people do have that mentality, it doesn't surprise me at all that they feel uncomfortable. Switching roles, like, well, no kidding you. I wouldn't have felt comfortable being a pharmacist if I'd never gone to pharmacy school, like, you know, what are you talking 

Mike Koelzer, Host: about? Switching roles, like going from one area of the pharmacy 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: to the next time.

Like I basically for my own, I was this, this pharmacy manager for Walgreens. And like overnight, when I took my other job, I went to an ambulatory care position doing diabetes education and hypertension management, where I was just seeing patients and sending, you know, prescribing and switching meds and all that.

And I. Like just one day I was at Walgreens doing the dispensing and one day I was a clinical pharmacist. Um, but I had set myself up for the whole time. I was at Walgreens so basically when I made that switch, it was easy. Mm-hmm and you know, and I wouldn't want to go back, but I could go back to dispensing if I wanted to.

I've had to fill in a couple times randomly, um, over the last couple years at our dispensing pharmacy. And, um, but that transition was easy because I kept up with the information. I kept my clinical skills sharp. I kept my time, uh, you know, where I had free time to go volunteer at clinics or in, you know, working with students and things like that.

I made that time available so that it was an easy transition, same thing with teaching. I was a teacher or I wasn't a teacher. And then all of a sudden I was a professor at a grad school program. Yeah. And, but that process felt comfortable because I had practiced so many times with the podcast and on.

Sure. So it was an easy transition and I've gotten, I mean, I've gotten a lot better over the years, obviously, and I hope I get way better than I am years from now. But it's not like this astronomical problem, or this, this huge mountain that you're gonna have to somehow figure out how to get over.

And it's already, by that time, it's like too late. So keeping up with the information and, and, and basically having as many doors open as possible so that when you decide you wanna switch something, that's like the most freedom, like, or the most freeing feeling you could have. And like, the freedom in that is, if I can't even describe to you of, or not, I feel very, very comfortable if I have switched roles tomorrow and go do something completely different.

You know, whether it be, you know, psych or inpatient, you know, pharmacy, whatever, I, I could easily adjust to that and I may have to freshen up on certain topics, but I would know exactly what to do and could [01:05:00] easily make that transition. And there's freedom in that. Cause I don't have any worry about things like, oh, what if I get burned out or this?

Cause I'll just switch. Or what if I, what if I, my job goes away or do whatever I'll just switch. Like, I don't care like that. The anxiety that I would feel from being in a dispensing role, for example, like I have several of my friends that feel like they're stuck because they haven't kept up the information.

And it's like that thought of them having to sit across from a patient. And now you're responsible for changing all the meds and like dosing things. And they're like, I wouldn't even know where to start. And I'm like, that, that to me would be terrifying. Like if I was feeling like that, um, because then it's like, that's like depressing as all get out because it's like, I'm just stuck now.

What, um, and I just never, ever wanted to feel like that. And so when I'm talking to students or, you know, other healthcare professionals, or even if you're in that position of like, feeling stuck, like start now, okay. You might not be able to jump into an ambulatory care or specialist role, whatever. But start the process of getting your knowledge up and give up the time that you spend binge watching some stupid show on Netflix or going to the beach or doing whatever.

I mean, obviously you need to have time with your family and all that stuff, and there's certain responsibilities, but the vast majority of people, if you audit your time, very critically, you'll find so many hours in the week that you spend doing nonsense. And that's something that I think people just aren't on every time I hear somebody say, I'd love to do that.

I just don't have the time. I'm like, believe me, you have the freaking time. There's time. Yes. There's always time. And so, you know, that's, that's a long winded response to that would, that's kind of, my advice is to always think about opening as many doors as possible. I'm gonna choose which ones I'm gonna walk through or maybe multiple doors and just see what happens.

But I want that freedom. I don't want someone to tell me, Hey, this is what you have to do because that's all you're capable of doing to me, terrifying. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: About the only thing I want to be attached to in life. The only promise I made in front of anybody was my marriage. You know, mm-hmm, , there's a lot of room to grow when you commit to someone and they say, I commit to you through your stupidity and things like that.

There's a lot of room to grow, but to have that freedom, like you set up, is a great thing, you know, to be able to have those options. Yeah. 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: And maybe it does, and maybe it's completely in a different field. You know, like my wife is super, super athletic and very into fitness and works out like a million times a day.

She's a crazy person when it comes to working out like her side hustle kind of thing would be that I would not be like, Hey, you should turn into a, a medical podcast. Like I do. She would be miserable. She'd be like, you are such a nerd. I'm not doing that. Like even, and she's the pharm D as well, but her passion is fitness and all that.

And to be honest, and I've told her this, she's like, oh, but I could never like, not be a pharmacist. Because I went to school. So who cares? Sunken cost, if you're happier being. In the fitness world. Go do that. That's awesome. Why, who cares? You always will have your phar D to fall back on. No, one's taking that away from you.

And I think that's the other thing is so many people get caught up on, well, I'm this, because I went to school for this. It's like, well, there's a thousand gazillion things you can do with a pharm D and then on top of that, just cuz you have a phar D doesn't mean you can't go do something else. It always comes back to happiness cuz it's like, well, if you're not happy, why the, who, if you already wasted 10 years and you're not happy.

Yeah. Why would you waste 10 more? Like it's just gonna be, you're gonna, that's how you get a drinking problem. Like what do you think that's right. What's talking about, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: there's a lot of people that think they're in a dead end job and they think all, why should I commit to learning all of the clinical stuff about pharmacy?

Because I'm gonna learn it and it may pay off. It may never pay off. And by the time it pays off, I'm gonna forget the damn stuff I learned. That was the value of the podcast for you because. You could have fallen into that. And that forced you to say, now, wait a minute, I'm gonna be talking to the world on this.

Mm-hmm this gonna force me to keep that? And so I'm trying to think of other things too. It's like, if you are stuck in a job, but you really like business stuff, you know, maybe find something that you have to be sharp on your business. You have to, maybe it's teaching a high school class on it, or, you know, mentoring somebody or doing whatever.

And, and the list goes on, you know, if it's whatever you might not be called then, but if you can throw yourself out there a little bit, or maybe a blog post on your LinkedIn, you know, take a stand, commit to something, write an article and you better know what's going on. The world's 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: looking at you to kind of capitalize and, and that thought as well, it.

People get so forgetful, when it comes to the process that they kind of went through to get to like, like getting their phar D or something like that. When you're, when you're in farming school, spend all your time. First of all, you pay them an astronomical amount of money to spend all of their time studying.

Then you go and do your year of clinicals where you're working for free, but say you're like volunteering your role. You're paying to work there for free to, to, to learn all these concepts and things. Yeah. So for me [01:10:00] personally, if I just woke up tomorrow and my absolute passion was business or something that had nothing to do with the medical world.

Yeah. I knew nothing about it. Every second of free time that I could spend or spare would be finding a CEO or a CEO or something. And of somebody that had. Career or a, a job or whatever that I thought would be awesome. Um, and I would say, Hey, I will, will work for free. What can I do? Just so I can kind of watch how you go about things.

And I would volunteer as much as I could and, and, and do whatever I could. So many people think this idea of like, oh, I'd love to do clinical pharmacy stuff, but, you know, I don't have time to go back and do a residency or do this, that, and the other it's like, well, you can volunteer at a local, like, you know, clinic that does like, you know, medication management for like homeless people or sure.

You know, or whatever it is. There's tons of clinics. You can volunteer like, well, yeah, but I'm a Pharm D like, I, I'm not gonna do that for free. Why? No one, no one is offering you money right now to go do that job. So you're not worth that much money to go do it. So why are you fancy? And you think that somebody owes you something to me, I'm like, I'm gonna just go and VO.

Cause then, you know, I used to go and, and help do like a guest lecture here and like do some guest lectures here and, you know, there's this, that and the other. And it's like, you know, yeah, I didn't get paid at that point, but now I get paid for that and I get paid pretty well for doing that. And so it's like, I wouldn't have probably gotten those opportunities.

Had I been like, just waiting around for someone to just offer me money to come speak when I had no experience and no, nobody knew who I was. And 

Mike Koelzer, Host: arguably you are getting paid to go and volunteer your clinical skills. You're getting paid seven years from now when you land that job. Exactly. And then you can take some of that wage.

You get down there and you can earmark it for what you did in 2022 for free for two hours a week. Something like that hundred percent. So it's what we've been talking about with the podcast and whatever someone listening to this needs to do to move forward. And don't worry about the money at this point, because you're gonna get paid for almost everything you do is just gonna be 10 years 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: from now.

And it, and you made me really surprised and it may be two years from now. And you're like, oh wow. That's a, there's lots of things that I do now that fell into my lap, like speaking for the drug companies and stuff like that, like that. I never thought anything about it, cause I always thought it had to be an MD or whatever, and a specialist, like I'm doing, I started a Hep C program at our clinic.

And now I'm speaking for one, you know, the biggest Medi you know, medication, um, or pharmaceutical companies that make one of the top me, you know, Hep C medications. I'm not an infectious disease specialist. And they came to the clinic and asked me if I wanted to do it, but I didn't apply. And it's like, but I never would've gotten that opportunity if I hadn't been for all the other things that kind of led to that.

Right. And none of those were quite unquote getting paid. But when I saw that contract and how much they were willing, you know, give me an hour to speak about some slides that they made. I was like, yep, let's do that. That's right. Sign me up, sign me up for these every night. Like, so yeah, it's just, and it seems like to me, such a simple concept, it just blows my mind.

How many people just don't get that ? And like you said, you're like, you're getting paid. You're just not getting paid right now. And it's like, we all, we all do that when we're in school. And then the second you graduate that mentality goes out the window. I, and I'm like, how did you not forget what you did to get here?

Mike Koelzer, Host: You paid money for it. And you waited for seven, eight years, and now you can hardly even pay money for it for a $10 microphone or a keyboard to write something out, or write a letter to someone or show up at some business and ask if you can hang out for an hour or whatever. 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: Right. And to be fair, obviously with something like education in school and stuff like that, there's a definite end point that, you know, once I get to that point, I'll make this money.

So I, I get that cause that's gonna be someone's argument against what I just said. However, if your goal is to create more opportunity and stuff like that, then yeah. You may not know a definit. Like a timeline as far as when that could happen, but I promise you it's gonna be shorter than if you do nothing.

Like if you do nothing, yeah. Nothing's gonna happen unless you just get the, you know, win the lottery. Well, Mike, if our 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Litmus test is happiness. You say there's an end point for pharmacy school, but there's enough people that get out and hate their job. that it is an endpoint, but it might be a sucky endpoint.

You know what I mean? Mm-hmm, absolutely that pulls it back of saying you don't even know that, so right. Make what you love at least part of your day. Absolutely. It's 20, 42. It's 20 years from now. What does a pretty fun day look like for you? 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: Probably a situation where I'm either. Going to the clinic to see patients working in some kind of a research facility or going into a classroom to either teach or help, you know, or to kind of run a lab [01:15:00] or whatever the case may be.

And knowing that I'm gonna do one of those other three things the next day, like, and then having each day to where I can kind of do, like, I like so many different avenues of the medical world or different disease states and like different specialties and things. I want to have the financial freedom to be able to just not have to work at a certain nine to five, um, and be able to kind of jump around where I want to, to, you know, ultimately, you know, I can kind of go where my interests lie and do different things throughout the week.

Um, and I'd also love to get to a point where, uh, you know, that, especially that far down the road where core consult is, uh, sustainable in making sustainable income, that can kind of fund other ventures. And I'd love to be able to be able to get like, you know, a condo to where when students come on rotation with me from outside, you know, The Charleston, South Carolina area, they can, I have a place they can stay and, you know, that's where the studio could be.

And we, you know, they can come to work on, stay here and do research. They're wanting to stay in Charleston. I have a place for 'em. That's like the core consult, you know, back cable, whatever. And, uh, you know, just have it to be like, you know, that freedom of being able to kind of do all the different aspects of medicine that I like without feeling that need of like, oh, I have to be here today.

So I can't do these other things. I wanna be able to jump around and, and do multiple jobs and keep it interesting. How many 

Mike Koelzer, Host: hours are you gonna spend on this fictitious day in 2042? 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: We'll see, I guess, whatever I feel like doing at that point, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: throw a number out. What's a fun number hour spent in clinical stuff on a Monday in 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: 2042.

I, I like to think I'm still at least doing an eight hour and eight hour day to be MI to minimum know minimum, but I've already, I did nine hours of the clinic today and doing this with you now. And I got a whole night of me, of, uh, of serotonin receptors and some other stuff I'm working on putting together.

It 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Sounds like you're slacking off cuz today you're gonna put in a 36 hour day and, and then in the future, you're only doing eight hours. You sound like me ready to put a foot in the grave. 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: I'm taking into account the aging process. And especially the years that I've, that I've whacked off my life, uh, from staying up all night on Mondays from doing I'm taking, I'm taking that into account.

Mike Koelzer, Host: All right, Mike. Well, I'm gonna go to bed in an hour and a half. I'm gonna hang out in front of the tube and probably have some, uh, cereal and slip into bed by 10:00 PM. And when I wake up at six 30 in the morning to take my walk, I hope you're still going strong through the 

Mike Corvino, PharmD: night. Sounds good. Send me a text.

I'll tell you what's up. All right, Mike. It was a pleasure. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. All right. Thanks for 

Mike Koelzer, Host: all you do. Talk again. See ya. Bye.